Honour Amongst Christians

at my genocide conference in july, i was involved in a conversation with a religion professor, an ethicist, my mother-the psychology graduate, and someone else... the religion professor is jewish. we were discussing forgiveness and healing after enduring atrocities. he thought, as a jew, that you cannot offer forgiveness unless it is asked for. you cannot forgive someone who is unrepentant. as a christian, i feel it is my duty to forgive, especially when the offender is not repentant. i don't really know the origin of this, but it seems as though it might be explained by the reception of our own forgiveness, whatever it may be for. i don't think seeking forgiveness for one's own wrongs and doing good things for others really have anything to do with each other.

if we are seeking forgiveness from god, yes, i think so. that counts as repentance. seeking forgiveness is the act of apologizing and working to fix your wrong and forgiveness is not so much an excuse, but the acknowledgement by the injured party that the wrong has been atoned for, or that the wrong is considered atoned for. it's making sure that the injured party knows that you really are aware of the wrong and wish to atone for it. it's not saying "oh, it's okay." it isn't. that's how it's commonly viewed now, but that's not what it is. the wrong is never acceptable or justified. it is that the wrong-er is no longer burdened by the crime.in christianity, the act of forgiveness is as much to unburden the wrong-ee of the crime as it is the wrong-er. this is an important switch from judaism. well. i think you're misunderstanding. the term "seek forgiveness" is that act of contrition, of coming before the person you've wronged and laying yourself at their mercy. it's an important part of improving yourself in the christian mind. the forgiveness is their choice. but you are supposed to expose yourself to that choice. the idea is to empower the wrong-ee, since your crime against them inherently took away their power or choice, regardless of what it was. exactly. but even seeking forgiveness of god is supposed to be this way. it is his choice to forgive and to give "life". the amazing part is that he promises never to withold forgiveness. that's the great part. it's not that we g to him smugly knowing that everything we did doesn't matter, but that we go to him confidently knowing that he is quick to forgive and being eternally grateful for it. it's an issue of wording and view, in my opinion. i hope i've explained that.

it's not a particularly weighty assumption. apologizing to the universe for upsetting the balance is just as good, as far as i'm concerned. of course not. but the whole eternal life thing is another issue entirely. regular life is one thing and should certainly not be revoked on a whim. but eternal life, if existant, has other issues attached. i'd rather not go into it, mostly because i just don't know what to do with this whole thing right now.

no. god and that baggage. it's very complicated. two years ago, i posted a rant list and not much has changed since then. after being a christian for 21 years, there's not many people who can answer my questions beyond "this is what it says". i know what it says, that's why i'm having problems. it is. but that's who i am. i'm a searcher. render unto ceasar...
that's the thing though; you have to have a healthy division between what you can manage and what you can't. there are some christians who think that you can't do anything without asking god first if they ought... i'd hate to wash their underwear. we are to be weaned children, not dependant infants. yeah but the bazoingas aren't

isn't that the point of humanity? sharing the solution when we find it?

i thought i'd bring this up, and i apologize for failing to do so earlier.in at least some branches of islam (i'm slowly learning about it.), the "fall" was no fall at all, but a test provided by god to see if humanity was independent enough. the story is that god created several "first couples" who were imperfect or were automotons or what have you. it was adam and eve who were the first pair to exercise freewill and all those other magical things they did. they were immediately forgiven for their transgression and it does not carry. rather, it is the tendency to freewill which "weakens" us and we are to fully embrace our humanness and also strive for right. now, again, i don't know a lot about it, but it would follow, thus, that salvation then is actually dependent on things we did and our willingness to accept our flaws, rather than someone's snack 6000 years ago.this demonstrates a distinct understanding of god, and potentially a more attractive one. but i think it's important to combine and reconcile these people who claim to know the same god. btw, the majority of muslims believe that anyone who comes to god by whatever name or whatever means will be accepted as long as they live righteously. combining that with the christian concepts of grace, and you have a sexy, sexy god.

i really do too. i'm not sure. it's very hard to find rational religious books when you don't know who belongs to what whacko sect. i know who the crazies are in christianity. i'm reading a new book about american muslims. you should check it out. war on error. i really am enjoying it. it's brief and not very in-depth, but it's about people and showing that they're american, not about explaining their islamic faith.the old testament talks about a lot of "righteous men". but when you read their stories, you find they were really terrible tyrants or philanderers or murderers or worse. they were considered righteous because they had faith in god regardless of their own failings. it's great to say "i'm going to live righteously". but it's not going to happen. you can try. you can fight injustice. you can give to charity. you can do all kinds of stuff. but, somewhere in there, you're gonna be mean to someone or fail to give when you should have, or scream at someone, or cheat on your wife, or something. it's going to happen.i think the biggest point of at least these big 3 is that god wants to know you despite your failings. yes, he wants you to be good. but he also wants you to know that even when you can't, he still loves you. if you don't have issues with guilt and you can live righteously, then you have no problems. jesus said he didn't come to save the righteous. clearly, there must be some righteous people, or he wouldn't have said that. he really wasn't one to say useless things, whatever your ideas of his origins. but, for the rest of us, who fuck up and feel bad about it (this isn't a jab), there's comfort in the knowledge that i am forgiven. and, no, i don't think that forgiveness is exclusive. i'm apparently a terrible christian. i don't think my club has a membership card.Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

it's about people being self-righteous and showy and generally asshole-ish. more "god loves me and he doesn't love you and that makes me awesome" shit. but considering the bible says that christians are predestined and chosen and all are undeserving and they did nothing to warrant being chosen, that has no real basis. people are just jerks.of course, the whole predestination thing is not universally believed, even though it's in there specifically. and some people think that's what makes people think they're special, that reading really doesn't fly with calvinism. you're dirt and god is awesome and you should work to show that he didn't waste his time on you.i love calvinism.