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Author Topic:   Honour Amongst Christians
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 236 of 308 (454344)
02-06-2008 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Stile
02-04-2008 4:42 PM


Re: Honest
Hi Stile,
I can't resist a "seeker" post, so here's my input.
I'm a Christian, and I'm a strong believer in being honest. Dodging weak points is a bad idea.
I think Christianity only works if a person is completely sold out. It's what Christ asked for, and it's what brings a response. However, I don't believe in a literal Bible, I do believe in evolution, I do believe there's contradictions in the Bible, and I acknowledge that there's a whole problem answering the question as to why God allows the evil that's in the world.
On the other hand, the Christianity I know about works, and it works really well. It's not terribly different than the Christianity Gandhi practiced, though Gandhi didn't call himself a Christian. He did, however, treat Truth as a being who manifested power to back up those who submit to his precepts. This is nothing other than what I believe, because I believe Jesus Christ is the Truth, Wisdom, and Word of God.
I can't imagine having easy, pat answers to the sort of questions you ask, and I haven't read the whole thread. But if you're seeking, I'd like to invite you to poke around Error 404 (Not Found)!!1, which is the web site of the Christian Village I live in. I'd also like to invite you to http://www.oldoldstory.org, which is my web site, which is sort of an "alternative" Christian site, although I don't believe it's alternative. Instead, it's simply what was normal Christianity in the 1st and 2nd centuries.

We cannot direct the wind, but we can adjust the sails.

shammah.rcv.googlepages.com

Rose Creek Village

To be great, one does not have to be mad, but definitely it helps. ~Percy Cerutty, Australian track coach, 1952 Olympics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Stile, posted 02-04-2008 4:42 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Stile, posted 02-06-2008 2:43 PM truthlover has replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 242 of 308 (454361)
02-06-2008 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Stile
02-06-2008 2:43 PM


Re: If I may...
and there's not really any difference in what we believe
It'd be hard to imagine, after one post, that there's not any difference in what we believe. We have agreed that being honest is important. However, seeking is for finding, and agreeing to seek and agreeing on how to seek is very different than agreeing on what's been found, or on whether anything has been found.
I mean, if you are "sold out", and I am not, and there's not really any difference in what we believe... why should anyone become a Christian?
See above.
Basically, what are you gaining from being a Christian that I am missing?
That'd be hard to answer without knowing a lot more about you than I do.
If these problems exist, that don't exist elsewhere, what's holding you into Christianity?
I'm answering in the order of your post, otherwise I wouldn't put this answer in the middle of my post.
What's holding me to Christianity is two things:
1.) I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Why I believe that is a long and somewhat personal story. The things that were awe-inspiring to me and led to my faith might not be awe-inspiring to someone else. On the other hand, the timing of those events and the significance of those events to me leave me convinced they were directed purposely to lead me to faith.
2.) I believe Christian teachings, including the following issues that are significant to our discussion:
A. I believe that people need divine help to be delivered from their selfishness. (Selfishness is your word, and at Rose Creek Village we often use that word as a substitute for the Biblical word "sin.") If people can set aside their selfishness and follow God's design for their life some other way, it appears to me to happen rarely at best.
B. Um, from the previous point, it's obvious I believe God, the Creator, has a design for our lives.
C. I believe the society created by Christ living in his disciples is phenomenal. I believe it answers questions answered nowhere else and addresses internal issues that many people don't even know they have, thus allowing the Spirit of God to bind them in a unity and love that we were made for, whether we realize it or not. (Maslow's hierarchy is an acknowledgment of that need.)
I'd say I treat Truth as a power simply because it's very difficult to argue with reality. I don't see a requirement for a being to represet the ideals of Truth and Wisdom when the ideals themselves exist on their own.
And I treat Truth as a person who possesses power. I do think of truth as a power, but nothing like the simple acknowledgment of reality. I'm talking about the confidence Gandhi had that if he followed the principles of Truth, then Truth would back him up and guarantee his success in such things as the overthrow of Britain from India. Normally, this would be seen as requiring force, but Gandhi didn't look for physical or martial force, nor for the simple persuading power of truth. He looked for a real power to back him up, so that if he and those with him practiced non-violence in line with truth, they would not only be seen to be correct, but they would succeed in overthrowing error and oppression.
I don't see a requirement for a being to represet the ideals of Truth and Wisdom when the ideals themselves exist on their own....What sort of knowledge do you attain from the Word of God that is unattainable otherwise?
Not ideals or knowledge, but power, and a rational power at that. I am not speaking a being who represents the ideals of truth and wisdom, but a being whose own will and choices determine what truth and wisdom are. I am speaking of a being who's real, and thus who intervenes based on his own choices and on behalf of those whose hearts are wholly his (2 Chr. 16:9).
I'm curious as to your motive.
Hopefully, all the above answers the motives of my invitation to look at the web sites I mentioned. I would add that your comments about seeking and the discussions your were having made me think you would be interested in Christianity being presented from a different perspective.
For the most part, I don't believe Christianity works for most Americans who come to it. What's asked from them is small, and what they get from it is small, if they get anything at all.
I used the word society above, and I don't think there is any real Christianity apart from the society of disciples. The individual style Christianity in America--where Christians get together as though they were part of a club like the Moose Lodge and hold weekly meetings, then go their separate ways--is no Christianity and no church that the early churches knew about. The church, Biblically, is a society, founded and taught by a common, transforming Spirit and made into a family. Their meetings were a very small part of their life together, because they were not a club but a true family.
The claims I make in the post above I believe to be true only for the society of disciples, not for members of Christian clubs.
I am not going to threaten you with hell. I hope it doesn't exist in the manner most Christians believe it to exist. I hope--and expect because I believe God is real and that he's a just judge--that it's just a metaphor for divine judgment and that nothing like eternity in flames would ever happen to anyone anywhere.
Perhaps the best sum of what my motives are is to say that I believe not just is seeking, but in finding, and that what I've found is worth running into, even amazing, and a little hard to describe in words. More than one visitor has called it Utopia or heaven on earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Stile, posted 02-06-2008 2:43 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Stile, posted 02-07-2008 10:19 AM truthlover has replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 251 of 308 (454496)
02-07-2008 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Stile
02-07-2008 10:19 AM


Re: Thanks for the in-depth analysis
Okay. But can you answer the question, then? The question was "What sort of knowledge do you attain from the Word of God that is unattainable otherwise?" and you said "not ideals or knowledge, but power". So now the question is "What sort of power (rational, even) do you attain from the Word of God that is unattainable otherwise?"
It's okay, I currently think the only answer to this question is "there isn't any"
I can't say I understand why you think that's the only answer to this question.
Lots of things can be true and not happen unless some power causes them to happen. In fact, lots of things are true, best, or good and not happening.
I don't think truth made Britain leave India, nor caused him (abe: i.e., Gandhi) to succeed for freedom (to some extent) is South Africa. I think Truth did. America's separation from Britain happened by military force. India's happened by divine force (in my opinion).
I believe submission and denying your own will carries power, but not the simple power of submission. I think we can cause things to happen by submitting to divine will, because God chooses and causes them to happen, where he would not have had we not walked in obedience to his guidance.
So I definitely wouldn't answer "there isn't any."
Without that ability, it's possible that something I don't know is better than what I already know. I know I don't know everything right now, so my search for possibly-better-Utopias continues.
This statement makes me question why you would worry about my motives in suggesting there was something more for you to check out. My motives were a knowledge of where I was at as a seeker. I was looking, so places to look were welcome and sought after.
Edited by truthlover, : added explanation of "him"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Stile, posted 02-07-2008 10:19 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Stile, posted 02-07-2008 11:34 AM truthlover has replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 257 of 308 (454652)
02-08-2008 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Stile
02-07-2008 11:34 AM


Re: Attempt to clarify
If what you want to say is that you have the ability to tap into some unlimited resevoir of power and I do not... but then you have no ability to show that you can actually tap into this power while I cannot... I admit I have no rebuttal. But I'd then argue that your point is useless because you cannot show your power anyway, and that anything you do have the ability to show, I can match.
Actually, you're the one that said something about seeking. However, there's absolutely nothing about anything you've written to me that indicates you're seeking for anything at all.
This statement of yours above is so typically American and typically religious. "Well, you say this and I say this, and nothing is proveable."
I don't believe that's true. I began this with a short post inviting you to look at something, because you (probably falsely) said you were a seeker. I think my claims can be tested out. While web sites are limited in what they can show, they are not limited to zero. If there's anything interesting there, it's not that hard in this modern world to check it out in person.
I happen to know that what is going on in Rose Creek Village is extraordinary, because I really was a seeker. I followed up on invitations, and I visited and read up on groups of all sorts for many years, looking for people who really did have the power to transform things.
Yes, my friend, I most certainly think there's a power that we tap into that you do not. Your flip-flopping words make it clear enough that you don't have anything.
I'd ask you to respectfully allow me to have my own equally-unprovable source.
You are welcome to it. My mistake. I had you confused with an honest seeker that wanted something provable and real.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Stile, posted 02-07-2008 11:34 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Stile, posted 02-08-2008 8:47 AM truthlover has replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 267 of 308 (455184)
02-11-2008 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Stile
02-08-2008 8:47 AM


Re: Sorry to ruffle your feathers
I attributed to you the idea that nothing is proveable based on your statement in post 252 that:
quote:
I'd ask you to respectfully allow me to have my own equally-unprovable source.
That was pretty typical of the whole post.
Is it possible for you to show or prove it? You say it is, but you don't actually show or prove it, please do so.
What I'm talking about can be seen, but not in a post on a message board. I offered you a web site to look at, and I told you that what we're doing and are accomplishing can be seen and felt. I mistook you for someone who might actually make the effort to open a browser, or better yet, even come see something if what you saw in the browser was actually of interest.
You've described the successes of various religions around the world. I have visited and talked to religious people in Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, Germany, Myanmar, Kenya, India, Ethiopia, and the US. I have had held those conversations in Italian, German, and English. I have talked to people from Venezuela, Mexico, Canada, and Surinam about the life of Christ. If I can get there, we will visit a very interesting village of 400 people south of Addis Ababa in Ethiopia who claim to be living a life of love, interaction, and mutual care for one another.
I have visited virtually every community I have heard about that is living the sort of life you claimed to be seeking. What we have is unique, despite all the places I have seen, all the people I have talked to, and all the communities I have visited.
I thought, from your previous posts, that you were the sort of person I am, who would actively pursue something that indicates a real power is at work. However, you turned out to be someone who won't even visit a web site, much less go see anything in person.
when someone asks you to show the thing you claim to be able to show.
As far as I know, you made no such requests until this post. If you did make such a request, it was hidden among your numerous assertions that nothing could be proven and among your requests for any good reason why you should go look at anything.
extremely defensive
Defensive? There was nothing defensive in my post. It was meant to be quite offensive. I had nothing to defend. I'm a real seeker. My post was completely on the offense, suggesting that there's no indication you've put any effort into seeking anything, just an effort into writing your opinions on an internet message board.
Edited by truthlover, : fixed code

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Stile, posted 02-08-2008 8:47 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Stile, posted 02-11-2008 10:53 AM truthlover has replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 269 of 308 (455209)
02-11-2008 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Stile
02-11-2008 10:53 AM


Re: Anything to show?
I did open a browser. I did look at the web site.
Well, that might explain our miscommunication. You certainly left me thinking the opposite.
I did not see anything or feel anything that I haven't seen or felt before and completely understand why I see or feel those things from a non-religious perspective.
I find "didn't seem like much to me" much easier to deal with than what I was hearing.
Glad to hear you're enjoying your life.

We cannot direct the wind, but we can adjust the sails.

shammah.rcv.googlepages.com

Rose Creek Village

To be great, one does not have to be mad, but definitely it helps. ~Percy Cerutty, Australian track coach, 1952 Olympics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Stile, posted 02-11-2008 10:53 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Stile, posted 02-11-2008 2:42 PM truthlover has not replied

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