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Author Topic:   Honour Amongst Christians
Stile
Member (Idle past 120 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 256 of 308 (454547)
02-07-2008 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by iano
02-07-2008 3:41 PM


Wonky compass or do nothing?
iano writes:
No. My suggestion is that if rejecting all wonkey compasses you should include tossing your own on the scrap heap too. Your reasons for holding onto your own are illogical in the face of such a conclusion - although you are entitled to do as you like.
My reasons aren't illogical, but regardless I see your point. But, well, I've been trying to tell you that this is exactly what I want to do all along. It's just that when my compass is tossed onto the scrap heap, I'm left with nothing to steer me. I wait for any inkling of steering from God, but none comes. The only steering I get is from my compass.
Rejecting your own compass too and taking your hands from the controls which steer according to your own compass, places your fate in the hands of "God" (if he/it exists) to steer you where he/it will. You'd be trusting him/it to do that even though you have no reason to believe he/it exists - other than the force of desire in your sails.
My wonky compass tells me this is a great idea. But I do not know how to go about accomplishing it. How do I let go of my compass without choosing another? I already am trusting the force of desire in my sails. That's what my compass is. Whenever I place my fate in the hands of God, I don't get any steering at all. Then I'm forced to decide something... forced to use my wonky compass again. Why are you assuming I have a choice in the matter? I've been trying to tell you for multiple posts that I don't choose my wonky compass, I just don't know how not to use it.
Let's choose an example. A man drops his wallet. My compass tells me to pick up the wallet and return it to him. How do I reject my compass? How do I trust God to steer me? How do I know the difference between trusting God or trusting my compass or doing nothing? I've waited for God to steer me in similar situations. I end up standing there doing nothing until someone else picks up the wallet and steals it. Then I stand and do nothing until the theif gets away. If I acted, it would have been because my wonky compass told me too. How can I get away from my wonky compass?
In Christianity, such a move is called a leap of faith.
Okay, I'm not overly concerned with what it's called. I'd just really like to know how I'm supposed to do it. How can I not use anything to decide what to do? And how come every time I let God steer my decision, no steering happens at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by iano, posted 02-07-2008 3:41 PM iano has not replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4136 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 257 of 308 (454652)
02-08-2008 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Stile
02-07-2008 11:34 AM


Re: Attempt to clarify
If what you want to say is that you have the ability to tap into some unlimited resevoir of power and I do not... but then you have no ability to show that you can actually tap into this power while I cannot... I admit I have no rebuttal. But I'd then argue that your point is useless because you cannot show your power anyway, and that anything you do have the ability to show, I can match.
Actually, you're the one that said something about seeking. However, there's absolutely nothing about anything you've written to me that indicates you're seeking for anything at all.
This statement of yours above is so typically American and typically religious. "Well, you say this and I say this, and nothing is proveable."
I don't believe that's true. I began this with a short post inviting you to look at something, because you (probably falsely) said you were a seeker. I think my claims can be tested out. While web sites are limited in what they can show, they are not limited to zero. If there's anything interesting there, it's not that hard in this modern world to check it out in person.
I happen to know that what is going on in Rose Creek Village is extraordinary, because I really was a seeker. I followed up on invitations, and I visited and read up on groups of all sorts for many years, looking for people who really did have the power to transform things.
Yes, my friend, I most certainly think there's a power that we tap into that you do not. Your flip-flopping words make it clear enough that you don't have anything.
I'd ask you to respectfully allow me to have my own equally-unprovable source.
You are welcome to it. My mistake. I had you confused with an honest seeker that wanted something provable and real.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Stile, posted 02-07-2008 11:34 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Stile, posted 02-08-2008 8:47 AM truthlover has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 2017 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 258 of 308 (454658)
02-08-2008 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Stile
02-07-2008 1:50 PM


Re: Still the same
-continued
iano writes:
So you say. But could you provide an actual example from another system? Bearing in mind it must have crystal clear qualities outlined below and the sense of upstream/downstream.
=StileOf course, there are religions (wicca?) that don't believe in salvation at all. You say Christianity is set apart because they believe you cannot contribute to your salvation. But there are religions that believe there is no such thing as salvation in the first place.
Salvation and rightstanding with God are the "goodies" on offer in Christianity. In Buddhism the goodies are "enlightenment". In Wicca they'll be something else. What the "goodies" are, is as irrelevant to my query as are types of work each religion says you have to do to get the goodies. Both are non-root details.
So let me rephrase the question. All those swimming downstream hold that the "principal goodies offered by the system in question" are obtained as a result of your partial or total contribution/work/effort/chosing-for-them/etc. Except the one who swims upstream. Can you give an example of a non-Christian system/philosophy/religion which doesn't swim downstream in respect to contribution-towards-goodies?
And besides, of the 30,000 or so Christian sects, there is more than 1 that believes you need to do nothing in order to gain salvation. They just differ on other ideas. So you're not even "one" against 90,000. You're in a pool of likely 15,000 or so.
You said that it would be noteworthy if there was a way by which one system coud be set apart from all the others on offer. If we can set non-contributing-Christianity apart from all others (including contributing-Christianity) then it might be interesting to look at this level of detail. But let's separate the wheat from the chaff first?
I'm asking these questions in this thread because I don't have a religion and I'm wondering if I should be joining one.
You don't have a religion in the formal sense. But every person has their own system of living. A cult-of-one let's call it. And your own system is peppered by words and notions that indicate your thinking is that you must contribute to whatever goodies there may be. Unlike an established religion, which sets out the goodies and the way to get them, your's involves a suspicion or hope or realisation that there is/must be "something". And that you need to do something to achieve it.
Your system differs with every works-based religion/cult only on detail - not on swimming-direction. Heck, even the atheistic proposition: "Life's what you make it" is works-based-systematics writ large
You've offered yours, saying it's "different", but it's "different" from the others in exactly the same way they're all "different" from each other. Equally different, equally useless in determining which is a part of our reality.
Let's see how we progress with separating the wheat from the chaff (above) before deciding that this is the case?
...and all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Stile, posted 02-07-2008 1:50 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Stile, posted 02-08-2008 9:02 AM iano has replied

Stile
Member (Idle past 120 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 259 of 308 (454668)
02-08-2008 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by truthlover
02-08-2008 6:28 AM


Sorry to ruffle your feathers
truthlover writes:
I had you confused with an honest seeker that wanted something provable and real.
You do not have me confused at all. If you have anything provable or real, please present it. I'm all ears, I really am.
I don't believe that's true. I began this with a short post inviting you to look at something, because you (probably falsely) said you were a seeker. I think my claims can be tested out. While web sites are limited in what they can show, they are not limited to zero. If there's anything interesting there, it's not that hard in this modern world to check it out in person.
What claims can be tested out? You haven't presented any. Well, you did claim that India's separation was from divine intervention. How do you propose we test that out? Is there anything else you think we can test? What is the non-zero information from the website that you think we can test? Please identify it so I can see for myself.
"Well, you say this and I say this, and nothing is proveable."
Why would you attribute such a saying to me? I've never said anything remotely close to "nothing is proveable". What I've said is that nothing you've currently presented is proveable. I'm certianly willing to look at anything you have to show. I certainly do think plenty of things are proveable. I'm just waiting for you to tell me about whatever it is you think you can prove. A bare link is, well, rather useless. A message from you that "I'm sure I can find what I'm looking for if I check this place out in person" is equally useless. What will I find if I check it out? What do they do differently that no one else does? What is this testable, proveable "thing" you keep hinting at but not describing at all?
Yes, my friend, I most certainly think there's a power that we tap into that you do not. Your flip-flopping words make it clear enough that you don't have anything.
What is this power? I'm really, really asking. Is it possible for you to show or prove it? You say it is, but you don't actually show or prove it, please do so. My flip-flopping words have remained constant throughout our entire exchange: Please, if you have something you think I do not, please show it to me. So far, the only thing you've showed to possess that I do not is the ability to get extremely defensive when someone asks you to show the thing you claim to be able to show. If that's what you're talking about, I don't find it a desirable trait.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by truthlover, posted 02-08-2008 6:28 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by truthlover, posted 02-11-2008 10:05 AM Stile has replied

Stile
Member (Idle past 120 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 260 of 308 (454672)
02-08-2008 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by iano
02-08-2008 8:00 AM


But how?
iano writes:
Wicca they'll be something else. What the "goodies" are, is as irrelevant to my query as are types of work each religion says you have to do to get the goodies. Both are non-root details.
That's just it, though. I don't think wicca offers any "goodies". None at all. That seems rather root-detailed to me. But maybe I'm misrepresenting wicca (I really don't know too much about it). Let's just make one up. I'll call it "The Religion with No Goodies". I've simply made this one up on the spot. And it still has exactly the same claim to reality as your religion, or any other.
You said that it would be noteworthy if there was a way by which one system coud be set apart from all the others on offer. If we can set non-contributing-Christianity apart from all others (including contributing-Christianity) then it might be interesting to look at this level of detail. But let's separate the wheat from the chaff first?
Yes, that could work. But we're ignoring the fact that we can simply, at any time, make up another religious idea that's exactly the opposite of whatever we're looking at. And it would have exactly the same claim to reality as any other religion, including your proposed version of Christianity. How can we tell a made-up religion from a God-given one? If there was a way, we'ed have 1 religion, like all know there's only 1 way to have pure water. That's a part of reality, we know so, there's only 1 way. Religious ideas are not (currently) a part of reality, we (currently) have no way to decide which ideas are made up and which are God-given.
your own system is peppered by words and notions that indicate your thinking is that you must contribute to whatever goodies there may be.
Why do you keep insisting this? Are you seriously saying my 'system of living' is peppered by words and notions that indicate I think I need to contribute to some goodies by the words "my system of living does not think I need to contribute in any way to any form of goodies".
Why do you keep insisting that when I say one thing, I somehow mean the exact opposite? Is mis-translation or lying about other people a part of your Christianity?
Let's see how we progress with separating the wheat from the chaff (above) before deciding that this is the case?
I think this is an excellent idea. All we need is a method to determine which religions are made-up, and which are God-given. Do you have an idea on how to do that? How can you tell a made-up idea wasn't given from God to be made-up?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by iano, posted 02-08-2008 8:00 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by iano, posted 02-08-2008 9:37 AM Stile has replied
 Message 263 by iano, posted 02-08-2008 11:09 AM Stile has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 2017 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 261 of 308 (454681)
02-08-2008 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Stile
02-08-2008 9:02 AM


Re: But how?
Stile writes:
That's just it, though. I don't think wicca offers any "goodies". None at all.
A quick glance at the wikipedia article on the subject indicates Wicca to be littered with law. If folk want to subject themselves to a series of laws they must reckon some advantage arising from it.
Let's just make one up. I'll call it "The Religion with No Goodies". I've simply made this one up on the spot. And it still has exactly the same claim to reality as your religion, or any other.
Let's not make one up. Lets perhaps take a little bit of direction from the conclusions we can draw from the hard reality around us - if drawing some conclusions is part of our search. You said this to Truthlover:
So far, the only thing you've showed to possess that I do not is the ability to get extremely defensive when someone asks you to show the thing you claim to be able to show.
You've made a claim about "all relgions in the same boat". I presume that you can show such a thing. To make it easy for you I've indicated one way to differentiate one from all others (in a not insignificant area). Come up with one actual other and I'll take your claim as demonstrated. We don't have to conclude God-behind-it from this. Just one is unique in 90,000.
Could you deal with the actual query head-on? Dealing with it by making up a religion on the spot might get me thinking you're being extremely defensive .
Why do you keep insisting that when I say one thing, I somehow mean the exact opposite?
Give me a while whilst I assemble a sample of what you actually say.
I think this is an excellent idea. All we need is a method to determine which religions are made-up, and which are God-given. Do you have an idea on how to do that? How can you tell a made-up idea wasn't given from God to be made-up?
You're jumping the gun a little. The context of what I said had to do with simply figuring out if there was one running upstream vs. the rest heading downstream. If so, then that would very noteworthy in your book. That's not arriving at God-given or no. But it might be a step along the way to finding out.
It must beat flying blind...
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Stile, posted 02-08-2008 9:02 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Stile, posted 02-08-2008 10:42 AM iano has replied

Stile
Member (Idle past 120 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 262 of 308 (454701)
02-08-2008 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by iano
02-08-2008 9:37 AM


Again, how?
iano writes:
Could you deal with the actual query head-on? Dealing with it by making up a religion on the spot might get me thinking you're being extremely defensive.
You might be thinking that, but then you'd be wrong. The problem is that making one up on the spot precisely matches the criteria you're requesting. Therefore it's not "being defensive", but "doing exactly as you asked". Their is no way to determine whether or not the religion I've made up on the spot was God-given or not. Their is equally no way to determine whether or not the Christianity you're proposing was God-given or not.
You've indicated one way to differentiate your Christianity from the others. I made up on the spot another one that does exactly the same. We have no way to know if either is God-given. God certainly could have inspired me, just as easily as He could have inspired the founders of your Christianity.
Do you have a method in which we can tell the difference between God-given religions and non God-given religions?
You're jumping the gun a little. The context of what I said had to do with simply figuring out if there was one running upstream vs. the rest heading downstream. If so, then that would very noteworthy in your book. That's not arriving at God-given or no. But it might be a step along the way to finding out.
It must beat flying blind...
It certainly does beat flying blind. If we could identify one such religion, anyway. The problem is you've provided your Christianity as this one religion. I've provided the one I've made up. They both equally surpass the notion of "one swimming upstream vs. the rest heading downstream". So now we no longer have "one swimming upstream", we have 2. And, actually, we have as many as you or I or anyone else can imagine. So we don't even have 2, we have 100,000. Or an infinite number, even. And the test is failed since we no longer have "one swimming upstream against all the others", we actually have an unlimited number that we can't tell apart or even identify.
So our problem then becomes, how do we tell the imagined ones from the real God-given ones? (Which is also the original problem, actually)
How do we identify that your Christianity is God-given? How do we identify that my made up religion is not God-given? How can we know Christianity wasn't made up and simply glorified and institutionalized? How can we know the religion I came up with wasn't inspired by God Himself?
I agree that finding a solution would be better than flying blind. The problem is that your proposed course of action is flying blind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by iano, posted 02-08-2008 9:37 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by iano, posted 02-08-2008 11:13 AM Stile has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 2017 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 263 of 308 (454703)
02-08-2008 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Stile
02-08-2008 9:02 AM


Re: But how?
iano writes:
your own system is peppered by words and notions that indicate your thinking is that you must contribute to whatever goodies there may be.
Stile writes:
Why do you keep insisting that when I say one thing, I somehow mean the exact opposite?
Some examples of what you say with comment.
When (if?) God feels the time has come to show Himself to me, I'm listening to the best of my abilities.
Why, unless you think it somehow depends on your best effort?
So many to choose from, each with the exact same strength and power behind it. How can I possibly choose one?
Are you relying upon your ability to choose?
And hopefully I'll see the truth when it's made available to me.
Presumably suspecting that if you don't see it you'll miss it. Reliant on your ability to see? Curiously, the Bible says you won't see it until after your saved!
Judging to the best of my abilities, yes.
Reliance on ability to judge?
But I'm not acting with pride, or at least I'm trying my best not to.
Trying your best so as to contribute to a successful search?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Stile, posted 02-08-2008 9:02 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Stile, posted 02-08-2008 11:45 AM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 2017 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 264 of 308 (454704)
02-08-2008 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Stile
02-08-2008 10:42 AM


Re: Again, how?
iano writes:
Could you deal with the actual query head-on? Dealing with it by making up a religion on the spot might get me thinking you're being extremely defensive.
Stile writes:
You might be thinking that, but then you'd be wrong. The problem is that making one up on the spot precisely matches the criteria you're requesting. Therefore it's not "being defensive", but "doing exactly as you asked". Their is no way to determine whether or not the religion I've made up on the spot was God-given or not. Their is equally no way to determine whether or not the Christianity you're proposing was God-given or not.
You've indicated one way to differentiate your Christianity from the others. I made up on the spot another one that does exactly the same. We have no way to know if either is God-given. God certainly could have inspired me, just as easily as He could have inspired the founders of your Christianity.
Do you have a method in which we can tell the difference between God-given religions and non God-given religions?
Good hunting Stile.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Stile, posted 02-08-2008 10:42 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Stile, posted 02-08-2008 11:47 AM iano has not replied

Stile
Member (Idle past 120 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 265 of 308 (454713)
02-08-2008 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by iano
02-08-2008 11:09 AM


Context, remember what we're talking about
In attempt to show that I "do something" in order to gain salvation, you've provided:
iano writes:
Some examples of what you say with comment.
Every single one of your examples is simply me "doing something" because I have to do something in my everyday life. If I do nothing, I will die. If I do not eat breakfast, lunch and dinner everyday, I will die. None of the options has anything to do with me "doing something in order to gain salvation". They simply have to do with me "doing something" in the same way you and everyone else "does something" everyday.
I would never say "I do nothing". Clearly, I type posts on a message board, and so do you. Also, clearly, this has nothing to do with either of us "doing something in order to receive salvation".
I repeat, again, that I do nothing in expectation of receiving salvation. If I've worded something strangely previously that makes you think so, please take this straight-forward wording with all the other straight-forward wordings of the same that I've made to take precedence.
I'll say it one more time in case you still aren't believing me:
I do nothing in expectation of receiving salvation.
Please, please stop telling me otherwise when it's obvious you're just making things up and abusing context.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by iano, posted 02-08-2008 11:09 AM iano has not replied

Stile
Member (Idle past 120 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 266 of 308 (454714)
02-08-2008 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by iano
02-08-2008 11:13 AM


Thanks
iano writes:
Good hunting Stile.
Thank-you. You too. And if you ever do find a way to identify if a religion is God-given or non-God-given, please get a hold of me and let me know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by iano, posted 02-08-2008 11:13 AM iano has not replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4136 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 267 of 308 (455184)
02-11-2008 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Stile
02-08-2008 8:47 AM


Re: Sorry to ruffle your feathers
I attributed to you the idea that nothing is proveable based on your statement in post 252 that:
quote:
I'd ask you to respectfully allow me to have my own equally-unprovable source.
That was pretty typical of the whole post.
Is it possible for you to show or prove it? You say it is, but you don't actually show or prove it, please do so.
What I'm talking about can be seen, but not in a post on a message board. I offered you a web site to look at, and I told you that what we're doing and are accomplishing can be seen and felt. I mistook you for someone who might actually make the effort to open a browser, or better yet, even come see something if what you saw in the browser was actually of interest.
You've described the successes of various religions around the world. I have visited and talked to religious people in Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, Germany, Myanmar, Kenya, India, Ethiopia, and the US. I have had held those conversations in Italian, German, and English. I have talked to people from Venezuela, Mexico, Canada, and Surinam about the life of Christ. If I can get there, we will visit a very interesting village of 400 people south of Addis Ababa in Ethiopia who claim to be living a life of love, interaction, and mutual care for one another.
I have visited virtually every community I have heard about that is living the sort of life you claimed to be seeking. What we have is unique, despite all the places I have seen, all the people I have talked to, and all the communities I have visited.
I thought, from your previous posts, that you were the sort of person I am, who would actively pursue something that indicates a real power is at work. However, you turned out to be someone who won't even visit a web site, much less go see anything in person.
when someone asks you to show the thing you claim to be able to show.
As far as I know, you made no such requests until this post. If you did make such a request, it was hidden among your numerous assertions that nothing could be proven and among your requests for any good reason why you should go look at anything.
extremely defensive
Defensive? There was nothing defensive in my post. It was meant to be quite offensive. I had nothing to defend. I'm a real seeker. My post was completely on the offense, suggesting that there's no indication you've put any effort into seeking anything, just an effort into writing your opinions on an internet message board.
Edited by truthlover, : fixed code

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Stile, posted 02-08-2008 8:47 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Stile, posted 02-11-2008 10:53 AM truthlover has replied

Stile
Member (Idle past 120 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 268 of 308 (455190)
02-11-2008 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by truthlover
02-11-2008 10:05 AM


Anything to show?
truthlover writes:
What I'm talking about can be seen, but not in a post on a message board. I offered you a web site to look at, and I told you that what we're doing and are accomplishing can be seen and felt. I mistook you for someone who might actually make the effort to open a browser, or better yet, even come see something if what you saw in the browser was actually of interest.
But this doesn't make sense. I did open a browser. I did look at the web site. I did not see anything or feel anything that I haven't seen or felt before and completely understand why I see or feel those things from a non-religious perspective. To me, it seems like exactly the same wondrous sense of community that humans can provide to each other to gain strength from. But it's certainly possible that I've missed what you want me to look at or try to feel. Which is why I've been asking you to provide a bit more information. It's kinda vague right now. It may be that it has to be vague for some reason.
This is what prompted me, again, to ask what it is you're expecting me to see or feel. If you can't tell me about it, and I can't experience it, it's certainly possible that it exists and I'm simply incapable of it.
It's also certainly possible that it doesn't exist, and you're simply adding superfluous conotations to perfectly mundane feelings and experiences.
This is the problem. I can't tell the difference between the two, and I'm asking you to provide anything you can to help. If you're answer is "I can't help you". Then thanks for trying in the first place. As far as I can tell, you don't have anything more or extra or better to offer other than your claim to such. A claim that cannot be backed is rather useless when I'm looking for actual parts of our reality that I'm missing out on.
I have visited virtually every community I have heard about that is living the sort of life you claimed to be seeking. What we have is unique, despite all the places I have seen, all the people I have talked to, and all the communities I have visited.
I'm not seeking this kind of life. I've found this kind of life. It's available to us all, simply from being human. What I'm seeking for is something beyond this wonderful life. Something more to the fantastic beauty and love and sense of community I'm already priviledged (and probably lucky enough) to currently be experiencing. You seemed to say there was something I was missing, and that you could show it to me. I've been inquiring about it ever since, but you've turned into pushing me away now rather than trying to help.
My post was completely on the offense, suggesting that there's no indication you've put any effort into seeking anything, just an effort into writing your opinions on an internet message board.
If I put any more effort into every baseless claim of "something more" that comes along, I'd have to quit my job and competely lose the wonderful life I'm currently lucky enough to participate in. In order to make such a drastic change, I'm afraid your personal endorsement isn't enough for me to take such a drastic risk.
There is, however, a completley easy method to show that your idea actually has some merit, and that there's actually something to be gained from following your advice. All you have to is, you know, actually show the stuff you claimed you're able to show. If you can't, and you can only promise that it can be shown "if I actually search into it" then I'm afraid you simply sound exactly the same as every other dead-end promise that has nothing more than I'm already engaged in.
You will persuade me to change my life and follow your course as soon as you do what you've claimed you can do... show me the benefits that I can't get from what I'm already doing.
Your answer of "all it takes is 1/2 an hour to walk down to the local area and check it out" is identical to every other baseless claim that turns into nothing more than a wasted 1/2 hour.
If you actually have something more, something unique that you can show. I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to show some of it. I'm not asking you for a 3-hour seminar full of hard-core physical evidence. All I'm asking is for even the slightest hint of something "more" that your advice will provide, that I don't have already. You've yet to do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by truthlover, posted 02-11-2008 10:05 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by truthlover, posted 02-11-2008 1:08 PM Stile has replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4136 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 269 of 308 (455209)
02-11-2008 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Stile
02-11-2008 10:53 AM


Re: Anything to show?
I did open a browser. I did look at the web site.
Well, that might explain our miscommunication. You certainly left me thinking the opposite.
I did not see anything or feel anything that I haven't seen or felt before and completely understand why I see or feel those things from a non-religious perspective.
I find "didn't seem like much to me" much easier to deal with than what I was hearing.
Glad to hear you're enjoying your life.

We cannot direct the wind, but we can adjust the sails.

shammah.rcv.googlepages.com

Rose Creek Village

To be great, one does not have to be mad, but definitely it helps. ~Percy Cerutty, Australian track coach, 1952 Olympics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Stile, posted 02-11-2008 10:53 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Stile, posted 02-11-2008 2:42 PM truthlover has not replied

Stile
Member (Idle past 120 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 270 of 308 (455231)
02-11-2008 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by truthlover
02-11-2008 1:08 PM


truthlover writes:
Well, that might explain our miscommunication. You certainly left me thinking the opposite.
Yeah, sorry, I have communication problems, I know. If it makes you feel any better, I am trying to improve them (that's part of why I post on here, actually).
I find "didn't seem like much to me" much easier to deal with than what I was hearing.
If that's what you're reading now, I'm still failing in communicating. What your pages show certainly does "seem like much" to me. It seems very powerful and an excellent example of what people are capable of when we work together for the benefit of us instead of me. I was just trying to say that I understand this level of power, and I already have it from my own family/community. But it isn't right to down-play how important and strong such societies can be.
I was also asking if you were aware of anything even better, and how to attain such. Or something that your strong-community obviously has that my strong-community is obviously lacking. Since, to me, I don't see much of a difference. I find it difficult to communicate about this request because sometimes words like "attain" or "has" can be very misleading. Sometimes it's not so much getting or adding but more letting go or removing that ends up with a stronger result than when we began.
It's hard for me to ask for such improvements while trying to also communicate the possibility that they may not be additions or even materialistic (it may be mental additions or subtractions). It ends up with me getting confused over what I'm talking about, and obviously shows in my writing.
Regardless, the request (however difficult to communicate) still stands, and if you are aware of anything "more" or "better" that you know your community has over all the others you've encountered, I'd love to hear about it. That's what I'm constantly looking for, and why I refer to myself as "a seeker".
Glad to hear you're enjoying your life.
Thanks, you too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by truthlover, posted 02-11-2008 1:08 PM truthlover has not replied

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