Spirits and other incorporial things

Ooo.. I'm studying magnetism in physics right now and I can assure you that this is not an explanation... unless of course you had something like 100,000 Amps of current flowing into that light house (equivalent to the massive electric arcs they use to melt steel in steel mills). I would guess that a light house draws no more than 200 Amps. And even then these massive electrical cables would have to be within a few feet of the chair.

Hi Purple, I think this whole discussion is very interesting.One of my best friends here at school has told me some stories about his experiences with the supernatural. He says that for three years God gave him the gift of discerning the spirits and was able to see angels and demons as they interacted with us. I also have spoken with a few other Christians who have had the gift of discerning the spirits and they described to me what they saw. They described the spirits as being more real than the physical universe we understand.If I were to guess, I would say that this universe is only a hologram with many more dimensions unknown to us that create something more real than what we presently think of as solid matter.I have no problem believing that many sightings of these beings are genuine. Who's to say that such things are not possible, and on what basis? And if these beings can interact with our physical environment as you described, who's to say that they cannot interact with our physical brains and produce some of the mental illnesses that some use as an alternate explanation?I don't think we should ever overestimate our understanding simply because we can fairly accurately describe the major laws that govern the known universe. I would really like to "know" the answer as well, but I cannot, so I believe. For a while I thought that believing was a weaker position than knowing, but then I realized that all knowing is believing. If we are to know anything at all we must have faith that there exists something outside ourselves. If we believe everything, we are a fool. If we believe nothing, we cannot function in this world.Where do we draw the line? Many here would say, we should only accept as real what science can prove or fairly accurately describe, but there is no good reason why we can't draw the line just a little bit further to include the many experiences like that of yourself and others as real. Just because science can't entirely explain it or cannot yet explain it, does not mean it is not real.I'm glad you are objective in your search for understanding regarding these things.

Thanks for your reply. Of course I've thought to ask this question. I am extremely curious about these things. I don't know about Purple's experiences, but Micah said that the things he saw couldn't be completely described as a 'visual' thing, but the best way to describe it in terms that people can understand is by giving a visual description. He said that these things were more solid and more real than we are, but yet he could see through them. He said that they cast shadows even though some of them emitted a kind of 'light'.Perhaps these beings are of a higher dimension and can choose when to show themselves in the 3 dimensions we comprehend. Perhaps, a part of us is actually multidimensional, but because it is bound in our 3-D bodies we cannot usually 'see' everything; so when someone like Micah has the gift of discerning spirits the boundries of the body are removed so that he can fully see all the dimensions in which we are living. This "endeavor" is dubious because we do not know HOW it works? Well, 200 hundred years ago, you would have said the same thing about germ theory of disease or the big bang theory or QM theory.Just because we don't know how something works, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.Of course I know you say, "We DO know how it works: they're all lying or deceived by their own brains." And this is an alternative hypothesis, but we cannot be sure that this is the case. And in Purple's case where Purple and family and friends and guests witnessed supernatural activities for over 25 years AND the house changed hands 10 times in 3 years after they left, this hypothesis seems unacceptable. How can you judge plausibility or probability in these situations? You are showing a bias by automatically rejecting one hypothesis and accepting the other. You cannot dogmatically state that every supernatural experience is not real simply because you want everything to fit in the neat little box of current scientific understanding.And that raises a question in my mind. How exactly would you prove scientifically that these beings are real?

I would guess that any TV show that goes out to catch glimpses of supernatural phenomena is highly suspect since they are trying to get viewers rather than the truth. I wouldn't use this as evidence to establish anything either.

So you are willing to admit that you don't KNOW whether or not ghosts/angels/demons exist nor are you able to determine which is more likely?If so, we have nothing left to argue. Gah! There you go dogmatically stating the negative. I guess we'll have to continue arguing. Throwing ALL bias aside and given the two alternative hypotheses that either Purple and her family and friends and the subsequent owners of the house were imagining things for over 25 years or Purple saw genuine supernatural beings, which one seems more reasonable? (I'm excluding the possibility that Purple is knowlingly lying to all of us) You've always been able to come up with alternative hypotheses, but you do not KNOW whether or not it is true. And if you came here to see me, how would you know that you aren't imagining me?

Thanks for your reply. No; You can't! Probability has NOTHING whatsoever to do with it. You can reject the hypothesis that these experiences are grounded in reality based on your BELIEF that ALL reality can be scientifically explained. I've just submitted a topic about this where we can debate this further. No, I BELIEVE that there is more to reality than what is commonly perceptible by our 5 senses. I do not accept Purple's and Micah's experiences as undeniable fact. But I have no good reason to reject them either. Now if it was somehow revealed that Purple is only 15, then I would have reason to reject Purple's story.Just because someone else who also claimed to see things no one else saw was schizofrenic does not mean Micah's and Purple's visions were also caused by schizofrenia, therefore this is no good reason to reject them either. And how do you KNOW that these other people who very conveniently agree with you are not figments of your imagination as well?

Thanks for your reply. Once again, probability has NOTHING to do with it. Probability is something that helps us to determine the likelihood of an event occuring within a KNOWN sample space. Reality is not a condensed event and the sample space is infinite and unknowable. I'm glad you included the crucial words "I ASSUME". Sure the brain can be fooled, but that doesn't mean that everyone who claims an experience with the supernatural MUST have been fooled. I find it especially hard to see how Purple and his/her family members and friends and the next 10 owners of the house could have all been fooled by their brains when they see a piece of furniture randomly move across the room not once but many times over many years. I would also guess that the character the child spoke about was imaginary. But what if YOU saw the character this child was talking about too? And what if you saw that imaginary character enter the child causing the child's eyes to roll back in it's head and lose control of it's body? What if the person standing next to you did not see the imaginary character, but saw the child's reactions? What would you do? Would this be enough to change your mind, or would you say that the very distinct vision of this imaginary character was all in your head and just happened to coincide with the child's first ever seizure? I can think of a few reasons why dramatic interactions between our two worlds would not be desireable for God or Satan, but I have heard other 1st and 2nd hand accounts of such dramatic interactions beyond weird feelings (maybe not as dramatic as a horror film though).

Yes, this is somewhat similar to the very first of many experiences my friend Micah had with the supernatural.I'm asking you to put yourself in his shoes. It seems like you're having trouble doing that since you do not really consider any of this to be a possibility. But stop for a second and consider it to be a possibility. Use your imagination.Someone is standing there with the child. This person looks as real or more so than anything else you've ever seen in your entire life. This is no chill or bad smell or feeling. Your longtime friend standing next to you cannot see the being. What would start going through your head? Then you see the being change shape and disappear into the child as the child experiences some kind of physical change that is observable to your friend standing next to you. You see the thing come out of the child and the child recovers. Then it comes over to you and tries to attack you, but blue light flashes out of you from nowhere and the being disappears.Perhaps you would try and convince yourself you were hallucinating. Perhaps you would go to a doctor and get an MRI of your brain. You would probably try and write it off as a strange coincidence and a brain fart, but could you in the end deny it and forget about it (ever seen Contact?)? ESPECIALLY if it happens to you many times throughout the next 3 years and if you meet other people who are not crazy that have seen similar things? I'm not at all saying that all or even most seizures are caused by demon possession. I have no way of knowing. Maybe you should ask Purple how he/she could have gotten all those thousands of things wrong? Purple sounds like a fairly scientifically minded individual.Sure, I would really love it if some professional "ghostbuster" scientists came in and checked every possible explanation while furniture was moving around and voices were coming from nowhere and beings were appearing and disappearing. I would like very much to have all doubts in my mind removed so that I could have tangible proof that what Purple saw was genuine evidence of Supernatural interaction.Let me ask you this though, if you had some friends that went on a trip to the mountains and came back and told you all about it, would you believe that they in fact went on the trip? Probably. You are biased because you have known them a long time and trust them completely. Furthermore they have no reason to lie to you.Now if some friends told you about experiences with the supernatural, would you believe them? Probably not. Why? Because you are biased. You do not believe in the supernatural, and in order to maintain this belief you will automatically accept any alternate hypothesis that relies on known scientific principles. You require a hefty amount of evidence to change your beliefs. And this is fine so long as you realize that these are only your beliefs and that you can't be sure whether or not you are right in dismissing their testimonies.

Thanks for your reply. Yes and no. This is why I find certain testimonies interesting where there were multiple witnesses. How do multiple people hallucinate the same things many many times over? There may be reasons for this beyond your comprehension. I don't see how this can be an argument because it is based on certain presuppositions about the spirit world and becuase it is based on a great lack of information.

Thanks for your reply. You mean because you're biased. Of course you can, and that's exactly my point which I hope to debate in the Is It Science topic. What gives you the right to say "I know" just because you BELIEVE all of reality can be discovered via the scientific method.

Yes, I know, but I'm talking about 3 people standing in a room hearing a voice coming from nowhere and then watching the furniture in that room re-arrange itself.You believe the improbable because you believe the alternative to be impossible even though you cannot explain why it is impossible.The ONLY unbiased objective way to look at this is to say, "I don't know."This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 11-21-2004 12:37 PM

Hi PY, Bravo! I salute you for having the humility to be the only true skeptic here. You seem to be the only agnostic that recognizes the hypocrisy in those who say they are skeptics and reject belief yet claim to "know" things.Care to add your opinion to the debate in the "How Do We Know?" thread in the "Is It Science" forum? Apparently being a Christian makes my logic faulty by default.I spose I should say something more on topic...I believe I was attacked by some of these beings about month and a half ago as a result of my ministry in the "ghetto". Someone said we have too many anecdotes already, so I won't expound. But it seems like carrying the Bible into the bad part of town made me a target by whatever forces were there.You seem to have constructed a proposition of "how" these beings might operate based on your own experience, but the more crucial question in my mind is "why?". The way you described your experiences, these beings seem to have a volition. So what do they want? The Biblical perspective is that some are working for good and some are working for evil. What is your opinion on why these things exist and what they want?

Thanks for your reply. This agrees with several other sources of information as well...I have read things written by New Age channelers who described several distinct forms of spirits as they call it. I have also heard those with "alien" encounters say that there are several different "kinds": the greys, the reptilians, and the humanoids. And according to the Bible there are different kinds as well. In Genesis the "Nephilim" are said to inhabit the earth, a mix of fallen angel and man. I don't know if any of these are related to what you saw, just thought I'd throw that out there as I am of the opinion that all are related. Going along with the Nephilim idea, perhaps these are the "imprinted memories" of people that weren't fully human? Who knows... I also have a friend who was present when some other people were doing that. She said the room got cold and then the board started spelling out messages. It scared so much she ran into a corner and prayed non-stop until her friends quit.It seems to me that if these things can spell out things that make sense to us, then they must be somewhat intelligent and have somewhat of a volition. Also, it seems like a room going cold commonly happens before the "thing" decides to interact with the environment. Perhaps it must draw energy from its surrounding? These things fascinate me too; I really would like to know how they work. I know you don't recognize the Bible as the authority that I do, but I can't help but note that the Bible describes in quite a bit of detail the spiritual war going on around us. This is one thing that has strengthened my faith in it. If we are indeed in a spiritual war as I believe, it would be most advantageous for the evil side to conceal itself in places where scientific skepticism prevails lest it shake the unbeliever's confidence that we are alone. I'm glad you take such a skeptical approach. This makes it easier for me to believe you are telling the truth. I understand. There is no direct evidence to conclude that these things are angels and demons as described in the Bible. ...Although, perhaps as somewhat of an experiment, the next time you encounter one, try preaching the gospel of Christ to it and see what happens. It has been my experience, and that of others I know that it will find this most distasteful... I believe this will happen within our lifetimes. Either the rapture will occur followed by the tribulation and armageddon or we will soon be integrated with machine intelligence that far surpasses our own. There's a lot to look forward too! So I optimistically hope and believe that we will get more answers in our lifetimes.