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Author Topic:   Spirits and other incorporial things
jar
Member
Posts: 31518
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 151 of 189 (166220)
12-08-2004 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by PurpleYouko
12-08-2004 11:48 AM


Re: Gravity isn't the issue here
You are still left with an entirely theoretical substance which we choose to call "dark matter"

Not exactly entirely theoretical.

What we are left with is something that behaves just like normal matter related to its gravitaional force, but that we can not yet see. We also see the effect of Dark Energy. We can measure their effects, just as we measure the effects of other things we cannot see such as subatomic particles, and one day we may well figure out how to see either or both.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-08-2004 11:48 AM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-08-2004 12:13 PM jar has responded

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 152 of 189 (166229)
12-08-2004 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by jar
12-08-2004 11:55 AM


Re: Gravity isn't the issue here
Jar

Obviously our definitions must differ slightly. What you describe is exactly the same as I have been trying to describe myself. It would seem that we both have the same definition of dark matter and I don't think that has ever been the issue here.

The argument that Crash keeps dragging me back into would appear to be in the definition of the word "theoretical".
At least you meet me half way with the statement

Not exactly entirely theoretical.

In my definition, you can't see it. You can't pick it up, you can't entirely define its nature or structure. Ergo it is theoretical.
If your definition of "theoretical" allows for degrees of theoreticalness (another presumably non-existant word) then go for it.
I just don't see it that way.

The Oxford English dictionary has this definition of the term.

• adjective 1 concerned with or involving theory rather than its practical application. 2 based on or calculated through theory.

I would say that dark matter most certainly fits into number 2 in this case.

This discussion isn't getting us anywhere is it?

PY


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by jar, posted 12-08-2004 11:55 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 12-08-2004 12:28 PM PurpleYouko has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31518
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 153 of 189 (166236)
12-08-2004 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by PurpleYouko
12-08-2004 12:13 PM


Re: Gravity isn't the issue here
This discussion isn't getting us anywhere is it?

Actually, I think it is. And I think we may be closing in on some important points.

Dark Matter and Dark Energy seem to exist. We can measure the effects of both, see evidence that they both exist.

This is similar to the destinction between Evolution and the Theory of Evolution. We can see that Evolution happened. There is simply a preponderance of evidence, so much so that Evolution is very close to being accepted as a fact. The TOE on the other hand is an attempt to explain what we see, what the evidence shows. It is something that can never be proven and someday may well be shown to be wrong and superceeded by a better explaination.

Now let's see if we can move back and tie the question of Dark Matter and Energy into the topic.

As stated above, we can see and mesure the effect of both Dark Matter and Dark Energy. Their existance, like Evolution, is supported by evidence. We are still developing theories or a theory that will explain what the evidence show. But that theory has nothing to do with the evidence.

The original topic is "Spirits and other incorporial things". Spirits, demons, ghosts, sprites and things that go bump in the night are significantly different than Dark Matter. So far, no one has ever been able to show any evidence of the existence of Ghoulies or Ghosties or Long Leggedy Beasties.

Until there is some evidence for sprites, spirits, demons of ghosts, there can be no theories related to them.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-08-2004 12:13 PM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
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PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 154 of 189 (166242)
12-08-2004 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
12-08-2004 12:28 PM


Re: Gravity isn't the issue here
Until there is some evidence for sprites, spirits, demons of ghosts, there can be no theories related to them.

I don't dispute that point and never have.
The original point of this thread was to attempt to shed some light on the possible nature of these (not even theoretical) "ghoulies and ghosties and long legged beasties and things that go bump in the night"

Nobody has been able to.

No problem.

I didn't expect them to either.

What the heck has dark matter got to do with it?

Please don't bring up my post when I playfully compared the two. They aren't really analogs. I know that already! Dark matter has evidence. It is a bonafide theory. Its effects on other stuff can be observed and tested. We are sure that something is out there.

SO WHAT?

All this is completely besides the point as I have never seriously claimed that the two are related in any way so why are we discussing the subject of dark matter at all in a thread about the nature of spirits?

PY

This message has been edited by PurpleYouko, 12-08-2004 12:43 PM


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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 189 (166283)
12-08-2004 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by PurpleYouko
12-08-2004 11:48 AM


And I still think this is off topic since it has never been seriously suggested that ghosts and spirits (or the Angels that you keep coming up with) have any relationship to dark matter.

Ok, well, we can drop it, then. I honestly thought you were the one that brought it up in the first place.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-08-2004 11:48 AM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-08-2004 4:04 PM crashfrog has responded

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 3196 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 156 of 189 (166286)
12-08-2004 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by PurpleYouko
12-05-2004 1:53 PM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
Hi PY,

You are also attempting to tie me to a "beleif" system that biases my opinions. You couldn't be further from the truth. I don't "beleive" anything, to my knowledge. Neither do I "know" anything. I am searching for answers to "everything" and the further my search goes the less I trust the "answers" that I get. I am probably more skeptical than most in this respect.

Bravo! I salute you for having the humility to be the only true skeptic here. You seem to be the only agnostic that recognizes the hypocrisy in those who say they are skeptics and reject belief yet claim to "know" things.

Care to add your opinion to the debate in the "How Do We Know?" thread in the "Is It Science" forum? Apparently being a Christian makes my logic faulty by default.

I spose I should say something more on topic...

I believe I was attacked by some of these beings about month and a half ago as a result of my ministry in the "ghetto". Someone said we have too many anecdotes already, so I won't expound. But it seems like carrying the Bible into the bad part of town made me a target by whatever forces were there.

You seem to have constructed a proposition of "how" these beings might operate based on your own experience, but the more crucial question in my mind is "why?". The way you described your experiences, these beings seem to have a volition. So what do they want? The Biblical perspective is that some are working for good and some are working for evil. What is your opinion on why these things exist and what they want?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-05-2004 1:53 PM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-09-2004 9:35 AM Hangdawg13 has responded

    
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 157 of 189 (166289)
12-08-2004 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by crashfrog
12-08-2004 3:37 PM


DM
Crash

FYI. DM was first mentioned by LAM in post 17.

PY


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by crashfrog, posted 12-08-2004 3:37 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by crashfrog, posted 12-08-2004 6:33 PM PurpleYouko has responded
 Message 161 by Lammy, posted 12-09-2004 11:36 AM PurpleYouko has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 189 (166337)
12-08-2004 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by PurpleYouko
12-08-2004 4:04 PM


Ah, I see. Fair enough. My apologies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-08-2004 4:04 PM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
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PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 159 of 189 (166495)
12-09-2004 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by crashfrog
12-08-2004 6:33 PM


Dark matter
No problem Crash.
At another time and place I would be happy to discuss dark matter with you. That is if I knew enough about it to make the discussion meaningful.

PY


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by crashfrog, posted 12-08-2004 6:33 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 160 of 189 (166500)
12-09-2004 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Hangdawg13
12-08-2004 3:57 PM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
Hi Hangdawg. Thanks for the compliment.

You seem to have constructed a proposition of "how" these beings might operate based on your own experience, but the more crucial question in my mind is "why?". The way you described your experiences, these beings seem to have a volition. So what do they want? The Biblical perspective is that some are working for good and some are working for evil. What is your opinion on why these things exist and what they want?

Unfortunately, my own experience and that of others who have also experienced similar things, is all we really have to go on. I wish it were otherwise but it just isn't.

As far as having volition in my own experience? I have actually come across several different "kinds" (there's that word again) of ghosts/spirits.

First there are the unexplained noises and things moving about on their own. Stuff turning on and off on its own. Furniture shifting.
These things never seemed to me to be really "inteligent". There was no sense of purpose if you know what I mean.

Second there are the visions and apparitions kind of ghost. This is your typical "white lady" that is seen drifting along a deserted lane or something. I have seen a number of these. Again there doesn't seem to be an inteligence involved. Maybe we are seeing things that are "imprinted memories" or some such thing. I don't really know.

Next there is the kind of stuff that happens when you mess with a Ouiji board. Most of the time this just results in imagined results just as was suggested on this thread earlier. Sometimes, it would appear that the contact is real though. This definitely seems to have some kind of intelligence. I think some of the things contacted in this way are good. Some are indifferent and some are downright nasty. Just like people really.

And yes, I too have been "attacked" by these things. I won't launch into any more anecdotes here but I will just say that I was involved in what can only be described as a running battle with one of the particularly nasty ones for several years. My wife and kids were also involved in this even though it started well before I knew her.

There have been many times when I am sitting and thinking about this that I almost manage to convince myself that I have been imagining all this. I try to keep as skeptical an outlook as possible and actively search for all other possible explanations. But then something happens that just blows all that away again. I just have to accept that there is something really going on and deal with it.

I personally don't relate any of this stuff to demons, angels or any religious stuff regarding to higher powers but I can undrestand why many people do see it that way. I beleive (about the only thing I will ever admit to beleiving) that one day, this stuff will be understood from a scientific point of view.

My only faith as I see it is that human inquisitiveness will eventually solve all the mysterys. I just hope it happens in my lifetime.

PY


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Hangdawg13, posted 12-08-2004 3:57 PM Hangdawg13 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Hangdawg13, posted 12-09-2004 12:51 PM PurpleYouko has not yet responded

  
Lammy
Member
Posts: 3612
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 161 of 189 (166523)
12-09-2004 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by PurpleYouko
12-08-2004 4:04 PM


Re: DM
Purple writes:

DM was first mentioned by LAM in post 17.


That's right, blame it on poor me.

Added by edit.

For the remote possibility that some people might want to compare science's belief in the existence of DM and DE and people's belief in spirits and ghosts, here is why you can't compare the 2.

Suppose you take a walk throught the woods and you come across a really deep and big footprint. You might think "hey, there's some kind of big animal I haven't seen before. Wow!" Well, some months later, you come across another set of footprints that are identical to the last one and you say "wow, big animal." You go back to your town and you want to assemble a searching party to seek out this big animal that's been leaving behind footprints.

When you are trying to convince your fellow townsmen about the footprints, someone says "hey, why don't we start looking for ghosts and spirits too? The town's crazy man keeps saying that he sees ghosts and spirits."

My question is which set of evidence do you think is more worthy to note? The words of the town's madman or the set of footprints that anyone can take a look himself?

You can't compare scientific theoretical concepts to things like ghosts and spirits.

This message has been edited by Lam, 12-09-2004 11:44 AM


Hate world.

Revenge soon!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-08-2004 4:04 PM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-09-2004 12:13 PM Lammy has responded

    
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 162 of 189 (166535)
12-09-2004 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Lammy
12-09-2004 11:36 AM


Re: DM
Hey Lam

You can't compare scientific theoretical concepts to things like ghosts and spirits.

What's your point? I already stated that didn't I?

PY writes:

Please don't bring up my post when I playfully compared the two. They aren't really analogs. I know that already! Dark matter has evidence. It is a bonafide theory. Its effects on other stuff can be observed and tested. We are sure that something is out there.

However, if you had suggested that we look for dark matter 50 years ago then you would have been the one who was thought of as the "crazy man"

It may be a theory now but it would have been firmly in the realms of the crackpot ghost story back then.

That is the entire thrust of my point here. New stuff is discovered all the time. Completely wacky weird stuff that never would have been entertained for a second by the "unelightened" in the old days. After a phenomena is discovered by physical evidence then the existing theories are examined and ammended as necessary to bring the new discovery "into the fold" (so to speak).
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. It is the way science works. It is the way it has to work short of knowing everything all along.

Just because nobody has any rock solid evidence of the supernatural and that nobody has ever bothered to form a viable theory as to its nature yet, doesn't mean that they won't ever do so.

One day we will figure it out.

PY


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 Message 161 by Lammy, posted 12-09-2004 11:36 AM Lammy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Lammy, posted 12-09-2004 2:20 PM PurpleYouko has responded

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 3196 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 163 of 189 (166548)
12-09-2004 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by PurpleYouko
12-09-2004 9:35 AM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
Thanks for your reply.

As far as having volition in my own experience? I have actually come across several different "kinds" (there's that word again) of ghosts/spirits.

This agrees with several other sources of information as well...

I have read things written by New Age channelers who described several distinct forms of spirits as they call it. I have also heard those with "alien" encounters say that there are several different "kinds": the greys, the reptilians, and the humanoids. And according to the Bible there are different kinds as well. In Genesis the "Nephilim" are said to inhabit the earth, a mix of fallen angel and man. I don't know if any of these are related to what you saw, just thought I'd throw that out there as I am of the opinion that all are related.

Again there doesn't seem to be an inteligence involved. Maybe we are seeing things that are "imprinted memories" or some such thing. I don't really know.

Going along with the Nephilim idea, perhaps these are the "imprinted memories" of people that weren't fully human? Who knows...

Next there is the kind of stuff that happens when you mess with a Ouiji board. Most of the time this just results in imagined results just as was suggested on this thread earlier. Sometimes, it would appear that the contact is real though. This definitely seems to have some kind of intelligence. I think some of the things contacted in this way are good. Some are indifferent and some are downright nasty. Just like people really.

I also have a friend who was present when some other people were doing that. She said the room got cold and then the board started spelling out messages. It scared so much she ran into a corner and prayed non-stop until her friends quit.

It seems to me that if these things can spell out things that make sense to us, then they must be somewhat intelligent and have somewhat of a volition. Also, it seems like a room going cold commonly happens before the "thing" decides to interact with the environment. Perhaps it must draw energy from its surrounding? These things fascinate me too; I really would like to know how they work.

And yes, I too have been "attacked" by these things.

I know you don't recognize the Bible as the authority that I do, but I can't help but note that the Bible describes in quite a bit of detail the spiritual war going on around us. This is one thing that has strengthened my faith in it. If we are indeed in a spiritual war as I believe, it would be most advantageous for the evil side to conceal itself in places where scientific skepticism prevails lest it shake the unbeliever's confidence that we are alone.

There have been many times when I am sitting and thinking about this that I almost manage to convince myself that I have been imagining all this. I try to keep as skeptical an outlook as possible and actively search for all other possible explanations.

I'm glad you take such a skeptical approach. This makes it easier for me to believe you are telling the truth.

I personally don't relate any of this stuff to demons, angels or any religious stuff regarding to higher powers but I can undrestand why many people do see it that way.

I understand. There is no direct evidence to conclude that these things are angels and demons as described in the Bible. ...Although, perhaps as somewhat of an experiment, the next time you encounter one, try preaching the gospel of Christ to it and see what happens. It has been my experience, and that of others I know that it will find this most distasteful...

I beleive (about the only thing I will ever admit to beleiving) that one day, this stuff will be understood from a scientific point of view. My only faith as I see it is that human inquisitiveness will eventually solve all the mysterys. I just hope it happens in my lifetime.

I believe this will happen within our lifetimes. Either the rapture will occur followed by the tribulation and armageddon or we will soon be integrated with machine intelligence that far surpasses our own. There's a lot to look forward too! So I optimistically hope and believe that we will get more answers in our lifetimes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-09-2004 9:35 AM PurpleYouko has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 164 of 189 (166551)
12-09-2004 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Hangdawg13
12-09-2004 12:51 PM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
I also have a friend who was present when some other people were doing that. She said the room got cold and then the board started spelling out messages. It scared so much she ran into a corner and prayed non-stop until her friends quit.

It doesn't sound like there was any measurement going on. I'm wondering if the temperature of the room as measured by a thermometer changed or is she felt anxiety and experienced a "chill" because say peripheral circulation was restricted?

There is an alternative to skepticism or independent entities and that is that these are mind phenomena. I yet to start reading this book I checked out by Lyall Watson where he seems to be looking at Jungian collective unconscious explanations for flying saucers etc. I probably should be reading it now instead of reading and posting on this board, heh.

Tibetan Buddhism seems to take a similar approach to deities and demons. That these are aspects that emerge from mind and can be dissolved back into it.

So I'm saying that we need to consider the materialist naturlist explanation of these things as mis explanations, hallucinations, etc and the ancient views that these are entities, and the mind created explanation. The collective unconsious or mind created is related to the hallucination but is more dynamic and has something to say about how these experiences can be shared.

As to aliens. Somewhere in the universe, sure. Visiting us? Very doubtful. Once these things get suggested they enter popular imagination. I'm thinking deities and demons are ways we can represent our conflicts over our behaviours and desires, and some people "externalize" this experience in some form of somatic experience. Others might account for purely mental conflict by attributing view points to a debate between angels and devils, like in the movie "Animal House."

lfen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Hangdawg13, posted 12-09-2004 12:51 PM Hangdawg13 has not yet responded

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 165 of 189 (166558)
12-09-2004 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Hangdawg13
12-09-2004 12:51 PM


Re: How could you know something is unexplanable
I believe this will happen within our lifetimes. Either the rapture will occur followed by the tribulation and armageddon or we will soon be integrated with machine intelligence that far surpasses our own.

That's it? Either one or the other? You are young so I'm taking it you are essentially saying within your lifetime so would you guess you'll live to 80-100? at any rate before the end of this century? But can't you imagine a number of other possibilities?

I've reasonably only a few more decades. The thing I'm most interested in is the developement in brain research. Rapture seems like a novel but fictional solution to the world's over population, kind of like mass "beam me up, Scotty"! I guess you are pretty fundamentalist. There seems little scriptural interest in the rapture. What little I know of it its an 19th century American notion, IIRC?

Still Christians have lived through many centuries expecting the end of the world and had to adapt when their expectations didn't materialize on the expected schedule.

I think as we find solutions to mysteries new mysteries will be uncovered or emerge. Suffering will continue and the Dharma will continue as a path to awakening and liberation.

lfen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Hangdawg13, posted 12-09-2004 12:51 PM Hangdawg13 has not yet responded

  
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