JAR's amazing theory of a Creator who doesn't Design (Faith & jar & invitees)

No, I'll get back to it. Just need to regroup as it were.

On rethinking this, I realize I don't have any more to say and the thread should be closed if others don't want to participate. There's nothing more to say to someone who can quote that same old list of predominantly liberal clergy ahd call it the standard Christian position. It would take me weeks of scouring individual church websites to come up with a comparable list of conservative literalist clergy who comment at the site on Genesis and evolution, to show how wrong you are. I think you operate by the rule that if you tell a big enough lie often enough people will believe it.So please close the thread.This message has been edited by Faith, 12-20-2005 07:46 PMThis message has been edited by Faith, 12-20-2005 07:47 PM

That's fine Faith. When you come up with a list of ten thousand Christian Clergy to support your assertions feel free to return.And I note, that as usual, when faced with evidence that refutes your position you resort to willfull ignorance and personal attacks on the other poster. Faith, please keep posting here at EvC. Few othere are capable of continuously posting messages that absolutely show the complete moral bankruptcy of the Conservative Christian movement.This message has been edited by jar, 12-20-2005 06:57 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Glad to see this resolved so quickly Why this needed a new thread to just reiterate what jar had already said I'll never know.

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AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

Reopened per Buzsaw's request and Jar's OK.At this point, messages should be by Buzsaw and Jar only.Adminnemooseus

Hi Jar. Let's begin with this: Assuming you believe in the Biblical god, Jehovah, and assuming you learned your theology of this god from the Biblical scriptures, here's what those scriptures say concerning the origin of man:Genesis 1:26, quoting God: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:......So God, in effect said, 'let us make man, designing man in our image and after our likeness.How does this work with TOE?

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

Assuming you read your Bible, Genesis is a tale told in the style of the authors, using the idiom of their day. The story from Genesis 1 is the younger of the two creation myths found in Genesis. But both are just tales meant to describe the view of the folk of that period of their relationship with GOD.However I don't think anyone thinks that GOD is some pisspoor designed critter like a human. Any reference to form or image is simply poetic and has nothing to do with the TOE.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You now bring up the question of what is meant and implied by the word "creator" in the thread topic. After all, this thread is really about your concept of the creator, so we need to define exactly what we're debating here. If you are debating on the basis of the Biblical god, as per the connon of scripture, then we need to go by those scriptures as to exactly what/who this creator of yours is and what he does. Then if we go with the Biblical god, you cheat by Xing out the portions of scripture that destroy your argument, for you have no empirical basis for alleging that Genesis one is any less authoritative than the rest of scripture for theological doctrine and for determinations in this debate.

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

LOLToo funny buz. I think I made it very clear what my definition of the Creator is. The Creator is that which spoke, thought, created the rules of nature that has resulted in the universe we see today. She created a perfect system, reasonable, logical, understandable, self-regulating, self-correcting. I have no idea what "Christing out" means, but from the rest of your post i'll take a shot at answering you. I'f I'm misunderstanding what you're asking, just let me know.I don't ignore any parts of the creation myths from Genesis. They are important stories that deal with the relationship between GOD and man, GOD and the Universe.But they are not meant to taken as scientific fact, or even historical. Why there are even two entirely different and mutually exclusive tales in Genesis. They are there to teach theological lessons. To quote from the "Catechism of Creation":

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Ok, so now we've established that you reject the Genesis account that God fashioned/designed man in his own image. Your thinking on this is that the Genesis record is mythical. How much of the Biblical record do you consider to be myth? Are the following scriptures which imply intelligent design by the creator also mythical in your view?
1. Romans 9:20 "Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why did you make me thus? or has not the potter a right over the clay.....?"
2. Regarding the earth, "Psalms 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth"
3. And the mountains, "The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place which you have founded for them."
4. The moon: Psalms 104:19 he appointed the moon for seasons" consistent with the Genesis record which states that the sun and moon were created for seasons, et al.
5. Concerning all things created, Psalms 104:30: "You send forth your spirit, they are created. (The Holy Spirit implied in design of things created)
6. Concerning eyes and ears of humans: Psalms 94:8,9. "Consider you brutish among the people, and you fools when you be wise? He that plants the ear, shall he not hear? He that formed (designed) the eye, shall he not see?" So you are supportive of this, which says:
1. God makes the calls and all creation responds. Sounds like ID to me. As I understand TOE, there are no calls from a creator god for nature to do anything? Is that correct? God's creation is transfigured/transformed/changed by God into order and structure with God present on the scene? Sounds very much like ID to me.
2. ......"but natural, not divine." Isn't there a contradiction here?
3. "It is dependent upon its Creator for its continuing existence and for all of the powers and capacities it possesses."
Wow! Preach it, brother! So the creator is in it all the way, empowering it, mananging it and making the changes (transfigurations) to suit him.

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

I said long ago, and in fact Faith quoted part of it, that IMHO, and I freely admit it is a belief only, that GOD created the universe. By that, I mean the rules that we are only beginning to understand, the forces, evolution, those things that determine what has happened. But those are Natural Laws.What we see, the universe, stars, galaxies, life itself, is simply the results of those natural laws and forces. Does GOD micromanage design? No. That's pretty obvious from the evidence of life itself. As I said earlier, ALL of the evidence shows that life simply evolved. And the best explanation we've found so far is the Theory of Evolution.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Jar, this's alotayada. Are you going to respond to the specifics of my message and answer my questions so we can have a sensible discussion here or are you going to ignore my message and keep on repeating what you've already said and avoid confronting the points I'm making.Like are the other scriptures which I've gone to the work and time to get up to corroborate the Genesis record also in your opinion, mythical or not? And what about the Catechism On Creation which you appear to agree with? Haven't I shown that it is contradictory to your position that the creator does not design?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

No, IMHO you have not.Scripture is meant to help people develop their personal relationship with GOD. They are neither historical or scientific texts.Here's a little more from the Catechism: Your posts here at EvC have shown that you have no knowledge or understanding yet of either science or Christianity. That's not unusual, most Christians don't. GOD is bigger, greater and far more wonderful than the picyune God of the Clasic Biblical Creationists. She is not the feeble fool described in Genesis, a designer so incompetent that he thinks one of the Lions or Tigers or Bears or OhMys would make a suitable help meet for Adam.The system that was created is wonderous. It's consistent, has been ticking along for over 14 billion years. Evolution, part of the system, is superb. There have been immense catastrophies like the meteor that splashed down a few hundred miles from me. Yet through the system of evolution, life returned, new, different, ever changing as conditions change. There will be similar catastrophies in the future. Once again, life will evolve that is suited for those changing conditions.The Bible is a great book for teaching us how to live with one another, to help us understand our relationship with GOD, but it's near worthless as a science text or history book.This message has been edited by jar, 12-21-2005 11:43 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That's not what I asked. I asked whether you consider the other cited texts which corroborate the Genesis record that the Biblical creator intelligently designs what he creates are also mythical as you say the Genesis record is. This is not to argue their historical or scientific acuracy, but whether you consider them to be mythical. Were they written as intentionally mythical? More yada. Please address my specific questions already posted concerning this catechism. As per the catechism statement on the former post, I have shown that it contradicts your argument that the creator does not design. This is nothing but a meanspirited demeaning personal insult and the rest of your post is nothing but off topic evasion yada, away from the debate specifics. It was you who seemed to be so concerned that we keep on topic at the onset.

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

Perhaps you missed my reply in the earlier message. In case you did, here it is again.Earlier you asked: to which I replied: So the issue of whether there is a contradictiion or not has been asked and answered.But there is still more to the Catechism of Creation. I quote below the response to the specific question "Are not science and the Bible in conflict with one another, as many Christians believe?" So the view that there is a conflict between the Bible and Science is held by some Conservative Christians and some non-believers. But it is only their beliefs (a fact I will readily admit) and not the only possible interpretation.The Bible addresses the relationship between GOD and life. It is not meant as a scientific or historical text. It does not imply some really Inadequate Designer.Now about your quotes. First, most were from Psalms which are meant to be poetic and allegorical. They are not meant as scientific fact. Sorry, but that is simply the truth.You posted: Certainly they are mythical. They are also not scientific texts or historical tales. They were poetry and allegory and in no way did they corroborate the Genesis stories. They repeated the Genesis stories. Psalms? Absolutely. That is the purpose of poetry, particularly heroic poetry. And the quote from Romans? Absolutely.As for the rest, please stop whining.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion