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Author Topic:   The Problem of Evil
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 16 of 111 (132515)
08-10-2004 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Jasonb
08-10-2004 5:42 PM


Re: Wrong on two counts
God is the author of natural calamities, but is he the author of moral evil, or sin?... Clearly not.
But isn't God omnipotent? If He didn't create evil, He surely must be permitting it.
And isn't God omniscient? If so, then He would have known the "evil" outcome of His non-evil creation - thus He did create evil by creating a creation He knew would lead to evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Jasonb, posted 08-10-2004 5:42 PM Jasonb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Jasonb, posted 08-10-2004 9:28 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 17 of 111 (132516)
08-10-2004 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Tel Rinsiel
08-10-2004 4:33 PM


God created the Angel Lucifer aka Satan. At the moment of Lucifer's creation he made the decision to rebel. Since Angels are non temporal beings. Hell is the place where Satan and his following angels were cast. I am not aware of any passage that says "who" created hell. I suppose it is assumed that God did since he created everything. (According to those who believe that.) St Thomas Aquinas said it best IMO that hell is where God is not. The soul is infused at the moment of creation by God. Of course this is why the Catholic church has always been against abortion. This is all biased Catholic teaching and has no bearing whatsoever in fact. If you are still curious about these matters might I suggest you ask a priest?

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 18 of 111 (132517)
08-10-2004 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tel Rinsiel
08-10-2004 7:31 PM


Hi Tel, and welcome!
I'm still confused... how come there's this passage?
God "creates evil" by visiting the fruit of evil doings. In the Old Testament, it was an eye for an eye - a tooth for a tooth. The wagers of sin is death.
In Isaiah, it says that "oh if thou hast hearkened unto my commandments, thy peace would have been as a river", yet it also say that "the evil of your doings" "Thou hast trusted in thy wickedness.....therefore evil shall come upon thee." If then - God visits the evil of "humans's" doings, he is simply doing that - creating the outcome of sin. What the passage means is that God brings/creates evil FOR the wicked and sinful. It's no big deal like a quote-minor would have you believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tel Rinsiel, posted 08-10-2004 7:31 PM Tel Rinsiel has not replied

  
Jasonb
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 111 (132543)
08-10-2004 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by pink sasquatch
08-10-2004 7:38 PM


Re: Wrong on two counts
And isn't God omniscient? If so, then He would have known the "evil" outcome of His non-evil creation - thus He did create evil by creating a creation He knew would lead to evil.
Moral evil (sin) was not created by God. Sin is doing the opposite of what God desires. So evil is in opposition to God’s creation.
Jonathan Edwards had this to say on the topic:
quote:
If by 'the author of sin,' be meant the sinner, the agent, or the actor of sin, or the doer of a wicked thing . . . . it would be a reproach and blasphemy, to suppose God to be the author of sin. In this sense, I utterly deny God to be the author of sin." But, he argues, willing that sin exist in the world is not the same as sinning. God does not commit sin in willing that there be sin. God has established a world in which sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God's permission, but not by his "positive agency."
God is, Edwards says, "the permitter . . . of sin; and at the same time, a disposer of the state of events, in such a manner, for wise, holy and most excellent ends and purposes, that sin, if it be permitted . . . will most certainly and infallibly follow."
He uses the analogy of the way the sun brings about light and warmth by its essential nature, but brings about dark and cold by dropping below the horizon.
quote:
"If the sun were the proper cause of cold and darkness," he says, "it would be the fountain of these things, as it is the fountain of light and heat: and then something might be argued from the nature of cold and darkness, to a likeness of nature in the sun." In other words, "sin is not the fruit of any positive agency or influence of the most High, but on the contrary, arises from the withholding of his action and energy, and under certain circumstances, necessarily follows on the want of his influence."
Thus in one sense God wills that what he hates come to pass, as well as what he loves. Edwards says,
quote:
God may hate a thing as it is in itself, and considered simply as evil, and yet . . . it may be his will it should come to pass, considering all consequences. . . . God doesn't will sin as sin or for the sake of anything evil; though it be his pleasure so to order things, that he permitting, sin will come to pass; for the sake of the great good that by his disposal shall be the consequence. His willing to order things so that evil should come to pass, for the sake of the contrary good, is no argument that he doesn't hate evil, as evil: and if so, then it is no reason why he may not reasonably forbid evil as evil, and punish it as such.

Jason B

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by pink sasquatch, posted 08-10-2004 7:38 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by entwine, posted 08-11-2004 5:24 AM Jasonb has replied
 Message 59 by pink sasquatch, posted 08-11-2004 3:49 PM Jasonb has replied

  
Jasonb
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 111 (132545)
08-10-2004 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by 1.61803
08-10-2004 7:41 PM


This is all biased Catholic teaching and has no bearing whatsoever in fact.
Just curious. What do you mean by this statement?

Jason B

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by 1.61803, posted 08-10-2004 7:41 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 111 (132646)
08-11-2004 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tel Rinsiel
08-10-2004 7:31 PM


To Tel Rinsiel:
Welcome to this forum! Hope you enjoy your stay.
The questions you have posed do not reflect one who is as ignorant as you claimed yourself to be. But of course, humility and modesty are never crimes.
You have stated the contradiction of omniscience vs. evil (why did God create Lucifer if He knew that he would rebel?).
You have stated the contradiction of omnibenevolence vs. ignorance (how can God punish those who do not have the chance/knowledge to know or believe in Him?)
You have also stated the contradiction of omnibenevolence vs. evil (how can a God who is pure good create evil, assuming that the said God is responsible for the existence of all things?).
There are other such contradictions that have remained unanswered in this forum. Examples include free will vs. determinism, the notion of spiritual morality, consistency of God vs. OT/NT, etc.
Due to the nature of your questions, I would be very interested in what half-baked responses you can garner out of fundamentalists. I'll retire from this thread until unsupported assertions and circular reasonings rear their ugly heads again.
Have a nice day.

"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tel Rinsiel, posted 08-10-2004 7:31 PM Tel Rinsiel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Tel Rinsiel, posted 08-11-2004 1:18 PM Sleeping Dragon has not replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 22 of 111 (132670)
08-11-2004 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jasonb
08-10-2004 5:54 PM


Please tell me you were just joking.
Tel Rinsiel, are you who you say you are? It’s just that your lack of English and understanding of it seems to come and go and you seem to have the answers to all your own questions.Could you actually be Charles Knight in disguise?
Oh yes, good ole Charlie decided to pretend to be a Filipino that has questions about the Bible. He is British, after all. And we all know how sneaky that Bond character is...
Use your brain, kid!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Jasonb, posted 08-10-2004 5:54 PM Jasonb has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 23 of 111 (132679)
08-11-2004 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jasonb
08-10-2004 5:54 PM


Could you actually be Charles Knight in disguise? -Pause While Everyone Gasps- If not I apologize, but then again I wouldn’t put anything past some of the people on this board.
It works like this - if you have some evidence to support that slur on Tel's and my name - let's hear it. I suspect the gasp you heard was people thinking about your level of stupidity.
this site logs IP ranges, mine will fall into a range assigned to the British isles.
How about this, you get a mod to check, then you crawl back here to make a proper apology.
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 08-11-2004 03:09 AM
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 08-11-2004 03:16 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Jasonb, posted 08-10-2004 5:54 PM Jasonb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Jasonb, posted 08-11-2004 1:13 PM CK has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 24 of 111 (132688)
08-11-2004 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jasonb
08-10-2004 5:54 PM


Ok, here is something you should be aware of. Us non-native english speaking Asians can write better than most you native english speakers.
While I was in high school, I had a lot of trouble communicating verbally with my friends. In fact, I had a lot of trouble writing those interpretational papers for the stupid poems that the stupid poets came up with (probably while they were drunk). HOWEVER, people actually had to come to me and had me proof read their papers and asked for advice on how to make certain sentences sound better.
Afterall, we all know that East Asians will one day rule the Earth.
Edited to make certain sentences sound better. It's late!
This message has been edited by Lama dama ding dong, 08-11-2004 03:46 AM

The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Jasonb, posted 08-10-2004 5:54 PM Jasonb has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 08-11-2004 4:57 AM coffee_addict has not replied
 Message 46 by PecosGeorge, posted 08-11-2004 1:44 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
entwine
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 111 (132690)
08-11-2004 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jasonb
08-10-2004 5:54 PM


Feel satan on your tail??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Jasonb, posted 08-10-2004 5:54 PM Jasonb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Jasonb, posted 08-11-2004 1:17 PM entwine has not replied

  
Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 111 (132691)
08-11-2004 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by coffee_addict
08-11-2004 4:43 AM


To Lama dama ding dong:
Oh, can't I just visualise the waves upon waves of flames on your comment from people who can't grasp the notion of satire.
By the way, cockroaches will rule the world after WW3, and aliens will rule the world after they wipe out the roaches. East Asians will rule the world for only a short period of time.
Note: Have we unconsciously drifted off topic again? In order to make this post worthwhile, I'll ask a newbie question:
What does "bump" mean in the context of this forum?
Now to bring the post back to the topic, may I encourage any Christian literalists to resolve Tel Rinsiel's stated contradictions regarding Christian dogma?

"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by coffee_addict, posted 08-11-2004 4:43 AM coffee_addict has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by CK, posted 08-11-2004 5:03 AM Sleeping Dragon has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 27 of 111 (132694)
08-11-2004 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Sleeping Dragon
08-11-2004 4:57 AM


Let's get back to it - it seems listening to our christian chums - Evil is the absence of God (and he's not present in Hell either).
So they are saying that he's not all-present, that there are pockets in the universe when he either can't go or has abided his responsibilities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 08-11-2004 4:57 AM Sleeping Dragon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 08-11-2004 10:27 AM CK has not replied
 Message 55 by PecosGeorge, posted 08-11-2004 2:05 PM CK has not replied

  
entwine
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 111 (132702)
08-11-2004 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jasonb
08-10-2004 9:28 PM


Re: Wrong on two counts
Jasonb writes:
God wills that what he hates come to pass, as well as what he loves
No wonder most people have a problem understanding God's will. A will that causes hate and love by the simple act of will alone. Only the tortured reasoning of someone like Jonathan Edwards can even try to justify that kind of thought. The anologies are laughable. Cold is not the lack of heat, nor heat the absence of cold, but both are the product of transferences of energies. Looking at his arguements scientifically, sin is the transference of evil(cold) to good(heat). This is a common problem with elder philosophers, the context of their arguments no longer fit the times. While they must be respected, they must not be blindly quoted.
This message has been edited by entwine, 08-11-2004 04:26 AM

What is, is or it wouldn't be...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Jasonb, posted 08-10-2004 9:28 PM Jasonb has replied

Replies to this message:
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Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 111 (132740)
08-11-2004 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by CK
08-11-2004 5:03 AM


To Charles Knight:
I'm sorry, I have just erased 500 words from this reply because I have given up trying to make something coherent out of the Christian notion of evil. It is futile.
Consider:
Evil is the creation of God.
Evil came into being due to the disobediance of Lucifer. (Who later evolved into Satan)
Evil is the absence of God. (e.g. no relationship with God)
Evil is the opposite of God. (i.e. Opposing God's values? Opposing God's demands?)
Evil is the disobediance of God, including both not doing what he likes and doing what he doesn't like. (e.g. Atheism, by the first Golden Rule, is evil)
Evil is the doings/thoughts of man. (e.g. war, rape, murder)
Evil has manifestations with powers. (e.g. Consider the evil spirits who were supposedly casted out by Jesus)
The list goes on...
How in the name of all that's jumping and green do you reconcile all these interpretations of evil (all from the Christian perspective) into one coherent concept? Sorry, but I give up.
In answer to your question, evil is apparently not a state of matter (i.e. no evil rock, tree, or patio) but is more like a human quality (rather like moods).
This message has been edited by Sleeping Dragon, 08-11-2004 09:29 AM

"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by CK, posted 08-11-2004 5:03 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 08-11-2004 11:14 AM Sleeping Dragon has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 111 (132760)
08-11-2004 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Sleeping Dragon
08-11-2004 10:27 AM


Would you agree that there are only evil actions?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 08-11-2004 10:27 AM Sleeping Dragon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 08-11-2004 11:41 AM jar has replied

  
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