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Author Topic:   Why ban the Bible?
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 31 (271075)
12-20-2005 10:46 AM


An issue recently came up in my high school, a history teacher (and philosophy professor at a local community college), was told that he had to put away his Bible by the Principal.
1) Why is there a ban on a particular philosophy regarding the world, the afterlife, and God?
2) Why is there a ban on a certain book?
3) Why am I not allowed to bring in religious texts to my High School?
I just don't understand why religion has been blacklisted in a place of learning... Philosophy about the world is restricted, are we living in the book 1984 by Orwell?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 31 (271084)
12-20-2005 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
12-20-2005 10:46 AM


Philosophy and Theology
It is probably an overzealous and naive administrator who, unaware of the law, has banned your professor. The Bible is a theology yet is it not also a philosophy? Not according to Websters.
Websters writes:
phi”los”o”phy -phies 1 : sciences and liberal arts exclusive of medicine, law, and theology 2 : a critical study of fundamental beliefs and the grounds for them 3 : a system of philosophical concepts 4 : a basic theory concerning a particular subject or sphere of activity 5 : the sum of the ideas and convictions of an individual or group 6 : calmness of temper and judgment ” phil”o”soph”ic \'fi-l-"s-fik\ or phil”o”soph”i”cal \-fi-kl\ adj ” phil”o”soph”i”cal”ly \-k(-)l\ adv
It could be argued that the Bible represented a theological viewpoint rather than a straight-up philosophical viewpoint.
Prophex writes:
1) Why is there a ban on a particular philosophy regarding the world, the afterlife, and God?
Phat writes:
see above.
2) Why is there a ban on a certain book?
Phat writes:
Overzealous administrators interpret Bible as theology and not philosophy.(Notice that Websters has more than one definition for philosophy!)
3) Why am I not allowed to bring in religious texts to my High School?
Phat writes:
You are! There is no law forbidding you to do that.
In Tinker vs. Des Moines the Supreme Court said neither teachers nor students surrender their rights to freedom of speech at the schoolhouse gate. If the questions and answers are relevant to the topic under discussion, questions can be asked and answered. That's part of academic freedom. Of course, if the questions are asked outside of the context of the classroom, you come into different issues altogether.
Landmark Supreme Court Cases
This message has been edited by Phat, 12-20-2005 02:19 PM

Nature is an infinite sphere of which the center is everywhere and the circumference nowhere.
Pensées (1670)
We arrive at truth, not by reason only, but also by the heart.
Pensées (1670)
Heb 4:12-13-- For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Holy Spirit--speaking through the Apostle Paul

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 3 of 31 (271104)
12-20-2005 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
12-20-2005 10:46 AM


It appears that the principal was grossly misinformed. Read what the ACLU, along with 30 or so major religious bodies in the US, put together on the subject:
Religion and Public Schools | American Civil Liberties Union
You can legally take your Qu'ran or Rig Veda or Bible to school with you, and if you end up getting hassled for doing so, your state ACLU will be more than happy to learn of your troubles. They might want to lead the suit to ensure that you keep that right.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 4 of 31 (271105)
12-20-2005 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
12-20-2005 10:46 AM


if you attend a public high school, the reasoning is clear. unless it is specifically required by the coursework, the presence of the bible demonstrates a personal bent on the part of the teacher. because of his role as a voice of the state and the peculiar status of teachers charged with young minds, it is very dangerous for teachers to profess personal opinions on school time... not to mention unconstitutional. you can bring whatever you want to school. your teacher cannot.

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 5 of 31 (271108)
12-20-2005 12:15 PM


Yes, Prophex the evil ACLU will protect you. Funny how that works. The ACLU, the perrenial whipping boy of the right wing, will support your right to have a bible in school.
Now about the OP. It seems to me that there must be more to the story. Most administrators are very aware of what is allowed and what is not. First of all, is this story anecdotal? Because I recently heard a very similar story, and found out that it was one of those friend of a friends mothers, hairdressers cousin swwears it is true. We call the urban legends. Or if it truly did happen at your school, how was the teacher using the bible. The bible itself is not a banned item, but the use it is being put to might be a banned action.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 31 (271112)
12-20-2005 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
12-20-2005 10:46 AM


time to support your assertions.
1) Why is there a ban on a particular philosophy regarding the world, the afterlife, and God?
Where's your evidence? Specifically, provide the legal document that includes the ban.
2) Why is there a ban on a certain book?
See above. What book is it? Where is it banned? Provide copies of the legal document including that ban.
3) Why am I not allowed to bring in religious texts to my High School?
Provided the pertinent documantation.
Charley, even you initial paragraph means nothing unless you provide the full details of what happened.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 7 of 31 (271123)
12-20-2005 1:16 PM


More fairy tales?
An issue recently came up in my high school, a history teacher (and philosophy professor at a local community college), was told that he had to put away his Bible by the Principal.
I suspect there is far more to this than this overly simple outline.
You haven’t given any background information at all!
Why was he told to put it away? Was he using it out of context? Had he been warned about it before? Please explain the context rather than this ”gossip’.
I would like to think that any competent philosophy teacher could justify using the Bible in a philosophy class, I know I have used the Bible a few times in philosophy classes. The Fall of Man is an ideal story for a philosophy class, it answers the question of why there is so much suffering in the world, what is the Fall if it isn’t philosophy? It certainly isn’t history.
1) Why is there a ban on a particular philosophy regarding the world, the afterlife, and God?
Surely you are better placed to answer this than we are! You are attending the school, so ask the principle, I am sure there is an acceptable answer.
2) Why is there a ban on a certain book?
IF it is banned then your school HAS to say why it is banned, so let us hear it.
3) Why am I not allowed to bring in religious texts to my High School?
Again, surely you know why, or don’t you ask questions at your school?
I just don't understand why religion has been blacklisted in a place of learning... Philosophy about the world is restricted, are we living in the book 1984 by Orwell?
This only appears to be happening in your school, or your imagination.
This does smack of the persecution complex that many Christians seem to need to have. We had an example just a few weeks ago when all the news headlines led with the story
”Girl excluded from school for wearing a crucifix’!
Sixteen-year-old Sam Morris was suspended from school this week for wearing a crucifix, a well known Christian symbol. A student of the Sinfin Community School in Derby, she was told by the school's deputy headmaster, Howard Jones, to remove the crucifix around her neck. After refusing to do so, trouble began to erupt.
Mr. Jones talked to the girl for up to 30 minutes, trying to convince her to take off the crucifix. However, the pupil, who is studying for her GCSE exams, did not waver and continued to wear it. It was then that Mr. Jones decided to give the girl a one-day suspension as a "last resort," saying that Sam violated the school's jewelry policy.
Of course, the news headlines were untrue, she was excluded for wearing jewellry, which just happened to be a crucifix. The spoiled wee brat even said she would still wear it, but keep it hidden out of sight! Why not just do that in the first place like any normal person, maybe she has some sort of attention seeking disorder.
So, I am willing to bet that there’s more to pro’s wee tale than meets the eye.
Brian.

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 8 of 31 (271144)
12-20-2005 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
12-20-2005 10:46 AM


quote:
An issue recently came up in my high school, a history teacher (and philosophy professor at a local community college), was told that he had to put away his Bible by the Principal.
1) Why is there a ban on a particular philosophy regarding the world, the afterlife, and God?
It is not so much that there is a ban on it. It is the fact that as a representive of the High school, he is representing the government. The principle of 'seperation of church and state' states that the government can not show a religious preference to any religion. During
the time he is a teacher, he is representing the state. Therefore, showing a bible (or any religious scripture), violates the consitituion.
quote:
2) Why is there a ban on a certain book?
It is not the certain book. It is the fact it is religious writing. That principle would also apply to the koran, the talmud, and the vedas.
quote:
3) Why am I not allowed to bring in religious texts to my High School?
You, as a student, are allowed to bring religiuos writing into school.
The teacher, as a teacher, can not. If you are told you are not allowed to bring religious texts to school , that is a matter that can be addressed by the American Civil LIberties Union. (as long as you are not trying to evangalise or push your religion on others that is).
If you want to bring a bible to school, and read it during study hall, it should certainly be allowed. Trying to convert other students on school property would not be.

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 9 of 31 (271146)
12-20-2005 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
12-20-2005 10:46 AM


An issue recently came up in my high school, a history teacher (and philosophy professor at a local community college), was told that he had to put away his Bible by the Principal.
Sounds like the Bible was being "displayed" to some extent. From your wording the teacher wasn't banned from having the Bible, just from displaying it.
The Bible isn't just "a certain book", it is a strong religious symbol, not unlike the cross. How would you feel about a teacher in a public school having a large cross on their desk, or their classroom wall? How is that different from having their Bible on their desk?

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 10 of 31 (271160)
12-20-2005 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by macaroniandcheese
12-20-2005 12:11 PM


Rights of free expression
Brennakimi writes:
if you attend a public high school, the reasoning is clear. unless it is specifically required by the coursework, the presence of the bible demonstrates a personal bent on the part of the teacher. because of his role as a voice of the state and the peculiar status of teachers charged with young minds, it is very dangerous for teachers to profess personal opinions on school time... not to mention unconstitutional. you can bring whatever you want to school. your teacher cannot.
An interesting issue! I have read different than what you say, Brenn!
Justice Fortas writes:
. . First Amendment rights, applied in light of the special characteristics of the school environment, are available to teachers and students. It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate. . . .
Clearly, a 5 to 2 majority opinion in this particular case shows that both teachers and students have rights of free expression...even if it is their cultural belief.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 11 of 31 (271164)
12-20-2005 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
12-20-2005 4:31 PM


Re: Rights of free expression
I would suggest that teachers should not read the Bible in the classroom - unless it is actually part of the lesson. The same goes for other religious texts (and many political texts). If they want to read the Bible in the staffroom out of sight of the pupils then they have every right to do so.
Free expression does not give the teachers in U.S. state schools the right to promote religion in their role as teachers - and they should try not to do so, even as an incidental consequence of their activities.

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AdminAsgara
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Message 12 of 31 (271167)
12-20-2005 4:56 PM


Before everyone jumps on Charlie, he did discuss this pnt in chat one night and accepted that he was probably mistaken about this issue.
He mentioned that this probably didn't need to be promoted.

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    arachnophilia
    Member (Idle past 1344 days)
    Posts: 9069
    From: god's waiting room
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    Message 13 of 31 (271176)
    12-20-2005 6:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
    12-20-2005 10:46 AM


    i'm not gonna play the jump-on-prophex game, because i do not know the full situation at your school, but:
    3) Why am I not allowed to bring in religious texts to my High School?
    you should be allowed to. the teacher might be a different case. as a representative of the school, and therefor the state education system, it might be seen as establishment. your school is likely playing it safe.

    אָרַח

    This message is a reply to:
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    macaroniandcheese 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
    Posts: 4258
    Joined: 05-24-2004


    Message 14 of 31 (271190)
    12-20-2005 7:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
    12-20-2005 4:31 PM


    Re: Rights of free expression
    tinker has nothing to do with religous speech.
    but i can see what you're saying.
    still, i think it is very important for teachers to recognize the power they hold over impressionable minds and to not take advantage of their position.

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    joshua221 
    Inactive Member


    Message 15 of 31 (271212)
    12-20-2005 8:52 PM


    Thanks Asgara.
    Yeah I did sort of think about it afterwards thanks to asgara in chat. I was wrong, but this case in my school is still a strange one. It was never a big deal or anything, but if what my friend told me was true, which is up for debate, really I could care less at this point. Then It is "messed up". My mistake though, thanks for the clarification over the matter, especially in regards to the chat discussion, and to Phat's overwhelming research.

    Your body may be gone, I'm gonna carry you in.
    In my head, in my heart, in my soul.
    And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both live again.
    Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Don't think so.

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