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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 36 of 1864 (389887)
03-16-2007 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Delta
03-16-2007 12:04 PM


Hi, Delta. Welcome to EvC.
(There's no need to post the same thing in two threads. We'll find ya. )
I'm pretty sure my comments would be off-topic in the other thread, so I'll try my luck here:
Delta writes:
The Father, The Son, and The Holly Spirit all together as One...as Jesus said many times... "I and my Father are one" John 10:30
But when Jesus was challenged by the Jews, He said:
quote:
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
In refering to people "unto whom the word of God came" as "gods", how was He distinguishing Himself from them?
Genesis 11:7, "let US go down, and there confound their language."
It's obvious God is not talking to angels here
How is it obvious?
Jesus fulfilled over 350 prophecies about Himself. Of these, over 105 it would be impossible for anyone else in history to fulfill
I'm not even going to touch those so-called "prophecies". Our local prophecy wonks can try to set you straight.
Our universe itself is a three in one trinity.
Almost anything can be described in a threefold manner. You could talk about the Trinity of Cats: the Eyes, Ears and Whiskers. You could talk about the Trinity of Ice Cream: Chocolate, Vanilla and Stawberry.
That doesn't mean it inherently has a threefold nature.
Can a dog understand the nature of the human-being ?!
We don't know. We only assume that they don't understand us.
either the Human-being can understand the infinite nature of God
By your logic, then, God can only assume that we don't understand Him.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Delta, posted 03-16-2007 12:04 PM Delta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Delta, posted 03-16-2007 5:37 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 39 of 1864 (389898)
03-16-2007 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ICANT
03-16-2007 2:41 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
ICANT writes:
What part of an egg is not an egg? The shell, the white, or the yoke.
No part of an egg is an egg. No part of a dozen is a dozen.
No part of a god is a god.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ICANT, posted 03-16-2007 2:41 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 03-16-2007 3:29 PM ringo has replied
 Message 53 by ICANT, posted 03-16-2007 11:15 PM ringo has replied
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 07-21-2016 9:57 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 1864 (389908)
03-16-2007 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
03-16-2007 3:29 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
Phat writes:
If we chopped Infinity into two parts, would each part be finite?
Each part would be finite on the cut end.
And if we cut it in three, we'd have two pieces that were infinite on one end and finite on the other, and one piece that was finite on both ends.
(Watch the math gurus demolish that one. )

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ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 43 of 1864 (389923)
03-16-2007 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Delta
03-16-2007 5:37 PM


You can do quotes like this:
[qs=Ringo]This is a quote.[/qs]
which will look like this:
Ringo writes:
This is a quote.
or like this:
[quote]So is this.[/quote]
which will look like this:
quote:
So is this.
You can also use the Peek button in the lower right-hand corner of every post to see how things are done.
-------------
I don't see anything in your post that's really about the Trinity.
Let's go slowly: How do references to multiple gods indicate a trinity?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Delta, posted 03-16-2007 6:49 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 45 of 1864 (389927)
03-16-2007 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Delta
03-16-2007 6:49 PM


Delta writes:
well, if you say multiple...you deny Torah....
Not at all. The Torah has plenty of references to multiple gods:
quote:
Exo 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
quote:
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
quote:
Exo 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
(and not just in Exodus. )
Yahweh wanted to be the Numero Uno God of the Israelites, but He didn't consistently claim to be the only god.
Only Trinity...only a triune God make sense...
What I'm asking is, why does it "make sense"?
Why is the magic number three? Why not eleven?
The bible must not abnegate itself or wouldn't be God's word
The Bible has lots and lots and lots and lots of abnegations. We have a whole Bible Accuracy and Inerrancy forum for that.
So it must not be God's word?
It must be man's word about God - and man's understanding of God is imperfect. So man makes up ideas like The Trinity that "make sense" to him.
Edited by Ringo, : Fixed quote.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Delta, posted 03-16-2007 7:38 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 48 of 1864 (389936)
03-16-2007 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Delta
03-16-2007 7:38 PM


Delta writes:
Yes....the Torah...when it was written ... was there any Christians or Muslims in the world ? or was only tribes and kingdoms with many gods like Romans and Greeks ?!
Well, you brought up the Torah. I only pointed out that it does, in fact, refer to multiple gods.
Because in new testament Jesus said many times : Father...Himself and the Holy Spirit....and not more
Does the New Testament say there are only the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Does it say there are no others or does it just not mention any others?
Does it say that those three are also one?
You just can't figure the nature of God...just by reading the bible, you just can't understand
That's what I'm saying: If you can't understand the nature of God, how can you say His nature is triune?
Well, this issue is the main link to Muslims believe of Mohamed last prophet
What do Muslims think of the Trinity?

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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 51 of 1864 (389946)
03-16-2007 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Delta
03-16-2007 8:39 PM


Delta writes:
But Torah always said that there was only a tru God....just read above
If you're going to distinguish between "gods" and "true gods", you're back to the problem of human understanding again. How can you tell who is a "true" god and who is not?
Because He can't deny or abrogate the bible, because He is the same yesterday...today..and tomorrow
But that's just what the Bible says - you can't use the Bible to back up the Bible. How do you understand which parts of the Bible are true, if your understanding is imperfcect?
...Apocalypse was always understood as a book apart ..
That's a new one on me.
Again, the same question, though: How do you know? How do you set the Revelation apart from the rest of the New Testament? It seems to me that you've picked the number three out of a hat and you're dividing everything you see into threes. Why?

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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 54 of 1864 (389970)
03-17-2007 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by ICANT
03-16-2007 11:15 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
ICANT writes:
I was assuming he meant it was impossible for 3 things to be one.
That's what I'm saying - it is impossible.
I didn't think anybody had such a simplistic idea of the Trinity. I thought the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were supposed to be One, not just three parts fastened together somehow. Frankly, that kind of trinity is a great big "so what?", "who cares?, "why even waste time mentioning it?"

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 Message 53 by ICANT, posted 03-16-2007 11:15 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 03-17-2007 11:49 AM ringo has replied
 Message 69 by ICANT, posted 03-18-2007 3:35 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 59 of 1864 (390002)
03-17-2007 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by tudwell
03-17-2007 11:14 AM


tudwell writes:
Henotheism is sometimes viewed as a stepping stone from polytheism to monotheism.
The question for this topic is: Where does trinitarianism fit on the continuum?
As Phat mentioned, many Christians do consider Satan, etc. to be "false Gods", so that smacks somewhat of henotheism. But the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all in the category of "true God(s)", aren't they?
I talked about "other gods" because they illustrate our understanding of the nature of "God". Different societies understand their god(s) in different ways - hence, "different" god(s).
Trinitarians think they have an understanding of "God" in which there are three (and only three) aspects.
My main focus in this thread has been, why three? Why not more? Why not less?
Why is Satan excluded from the Trinity? What's the difference between the Father and the Holy Spirit?
How can three and one be the same, except as a cliche?
If we can't come to a common understanding of how many gods there are, how can we come to a common understanding of how many aspects one god has?

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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 60 of 1864 (390003)
03-17-2007 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
03-17-2007 11:49 AM


Re: Re-Trinity
Phat writes:
The Trinity is, in my opinion, not a major theological issue.
Well, it's the issue of this thread.
Your quote draws an interesting distinction between Tritheism and Dualism. My question would be: Why does this "Satan" character have to represent a conflicting superpower? Why not - as many Bible references suggest - see Satan as part of the Godhead? If God is all-powerful, how can the Tempter, the Prosecuter, etc. not be a part of Him?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 08-13-2014 6:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 62 of 1864 (390005)
03-17-2007 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by tudwell
03-17-2007 12:42 PM


tudwell writes:
I guess I should have read the whole thread before replying.
No, if it needed clarifying for you, it probably needed clarifying for somebody else too. (My stream of consciousness often changes channels in midpost.)
By all means, jump into the middle and ask.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 70 of 1864 (390088)
03-18-2007 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by ICANT
03-18-2007 3:35 AM


Re: Re-Trinity
ICANT writes:
So you are saying that what I started with was not an egg.
It sure turned into 3 different piles, or was that me dreaming?
I can cut a pie into three pieces too. Does that make it a "trinity"?
I could separate an egg into carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen and "other". Does that make it a "pentity"?
Ringo you have a body, a spirit and a mind, according to Jesus I assume you have all of these.
What's the difference between a "spirit" and a "mind"? Are you separating them arbitrarily just to come up with the magic number Three?
And even if I am a trinity, how does it follow that God must be a Trinity too? If I was made in God's image, does He have blonde hair and blue eyes? For that matter, is "He" a He or a She?
Comparisons between God and me have to stop at one point or another.
According to Jesus God made us Physical (heart), Spiritual (soul) and Intellectual (mind).
The way the Bible usually uses the word "heart", it doesn't refer to the physical - it refers to the spirit/mind. So Jesus was actually saying, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy mind, and with all thy mind, and with all thy mind."
Back to my egg: Shell, encompases all, white, surounds, yoke, physical that contains life.
It's a cute little story, and it covers your conception of god in a trite little way.
But we come back to the limits of human understanding: You can describe God as a "trinity", but that is not necessarily a true reflection of His nature.
(Have you given any thought to including the Tempter and the Prosecutor in the Pentity?)
Edited by Ringo, : Added a missing "that".

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ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 81 of 1864 (735446)
08-15-2014 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Phat
08-13-2014 6:31 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
If God is all-powerful, how can the Tempter, the Prosecuter, etc. not be a part of Him?
Because that would make God Schizophrenic.
And?
What you're saying is the equivalent of, "Jeffrey Dahmer could not have eaten his victims because that would make him a cannibal."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 08-13-2014 6:31 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 08-15-2014 4:43 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 86 of 1864 (735472)
08-16-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
08-15-2014 4:43 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
Phat writes:
Granted you can argue that He plays all of the roles, but it makes more sense for Him to be good, rather than complete.
I was refering to your logic. You said that being complete would make God schizophrenic. I say if He is He is.
You seem to be squeamish about the reality of your God. He "must" be good; He "can't" be evil or have anything to do with evil. Yet He's supposedly the Creator of "all seen and unseen".
By your math, evil isn't part of "all seen and unseen". Huh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 08-15-2014 4:43 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 92 of 1864 (735535)
08-17-2014 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
08-17-2014 8:57 AM


Re: Re-Trinity
Phat writes:
An artist can paint a picture of many zoo animals but that does not make the artist a zebra.
Bad analogy: God didn't paint pictures of zebras; He created zebras. If zebras are evil, He created evil. If ebola is evil, He created evil. Even if ebola isn't evil per se, if it does evil, He is responsible.
Phat writes:
Get my point?
Your point is still wrong, no matter how many times you repeat it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 08-17-2014 8:57 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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