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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 1864 (735640)
08-19-2014 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ringo
08-18-2014 11:53 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
I'm willing to give up the experience of war, famine, genocide, etc.
None of those things are caused by God creating the earth. The earth will support 7 billion people who don't have to go to war with each other or kill each other.
The alternative, as I see it is a world without human beings at all.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 08-18-2014 11:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 08-20-2014 11:43 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 1864 (735651)
08-20-2014 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ringo
08-20-2014 11:43 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
which seems to suggest that God created "the possibility of evil" to broaden our range of experiences. My response was that He was doing us no favour.
Life evolved on this planet. Evolution happens because there is a competition for resources. That means a world with human life and no strife is impossible. That could only be attained if we were actually specially created in the way Creationists expect.
Not having or allowing evolution would be a disservice.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 08-20-2014 11:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 08-20-2014 1:46 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 1864 (735656)
08-20-2014 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
08-20-2014 2:34 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Why couldn't God avoid creating evil by creating a world that didn't evolve?
1) Who says such a thing is even possible?
2) Men do evil and it is impossible to create humans with free will where some of them won't do the wrong thing. Also, motivation from pure motives is not the only way to create progress.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 08-20-2014 2:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 08-20-2014 8:10 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 08-21-2014 12:01 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 113 by Epee, posted 08-22-2014 9:03 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 1864 (735681)
08-21-2014 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by ringo
08-21-2014 12:01 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
See above.
Can God make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 08-21-2014 12:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Jon, posted 08-22-2014 1:38 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 08-22-2014 11:45 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 1864 (735694)
08-22-2014 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Epee
08-22-2014 9:03 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
He could have easily have made doing evil things as repulsive to us as eating dirt.
Not without programming you in such a way, which I contend does not leave you with free will. How many of what we seem to universally find repulsive is not socially learned? How much of what is left is not a product of evolution?
In particular, not eating dirt is a learned response. People put all kinds of things in their mouths (penises, cigars, yogurt without fruit) that I would find repulsive to try.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Epee, posted 08-22-2014 9:03 AM Epee has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 1864 (735696)
08-22-2014 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Omnivorous
08-22-2014 9:54 AM


Re: The Trinity
As a nonbeliever, I take a functional, historical view of the Trinity: Judaic monotheism was hijacked by a charismatic teacher, requiring the Son; his teachings and subsequent oral history opened the door to the Holy Spirit.
Yet there is apparently a bit more to Trinity doctrine than forced monotheism. What I find most intriguing (i.e. as silly) about the doctrine is the use of it to designated other followers of Christ as non-Christians.
In trying to track down and understand the doctrine, I came across a controversy over the fact that evangelist T.D. Jakes embraced held a non-traditional view of the Trinity.
While I am able to the distinction between Jakes old view, which he has now renounced and the traditional view, it's a lot more difficult to convince me that the difference is anything Jesus spoke about.
According to almost all evangelistic fundies, people like T.D. Jakes with his reformed view is a heretic despite the fact that they agree with 99.44% of everything he says. Of course those same people invariably believe the earth is 6000 years old.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Omnivorous, posted 08-22-2014 9:54 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 1864 (735698)
08-22-2014 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Jon
08-22-2014 3:34 AM


Re: The Trinity
I imagine the Trinity as being a single being with three simultaneous manifestations.
Nothing particularly strange with that, but what you imagine is definitely not the Trinity doctrine. It is close to the Oneness doctrine embraced by the United Pentecostal Church. As best as I can tell, most fundies would consider that belief heretical.
Oneness Pentecostalism - Wikipedia
quote:
Oneness Pentecostalism derives its distinctive name from its teaching on the Godhead, which is popularly referred to as the Oneness doctrine.[2] This doctrine states that there is one God, a singular divine person, who manifests himself in many ways, including as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (a.k.a. Holy Spirit). This stands in sharp contrast to the doctrine of three distinct and eternal "persons" posited by Trinitarian theology. Oneness believers baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, commonly referred to as Jesus-name baptism, rather than using the Trinitarian formula.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Jon, posted 08-22-2014 3:34 AM Jon has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 1864 (735700)
08-22-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by ringo
08-22-2014 11:45 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
That just emphasizes how silly the concept of an "omnipotent" being is - as silly as the concept of a "trinity"
Exactly. But most Christians are not quite so literal about the word omnipotent. Even the verse you quoted from the Bible described something rare but not logically impossible. Christians who call God omnipotent aren't looking for God to make an invisible, shining, white opaque object that absorbs all light. And the people telling me that I should hold God responsible for the fact that our sun only has a few billion years worth of hydrogen are invariably atheists.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 08-22-2014 11:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 08-22-2014 12:52 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 1864 (735716)
08-22-2014 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ringo
08-22-2014 12:52 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
As soon as you give up omnipotence, "God" becomes just an alien overlord.
Let me suggest that your position is a bit silly. We agree that the entire idea of omnipotence, where that word includes being able to perform logical inconsistencies is silly. But then you go on to say that God not having a silly trait is also silly.
God cannot control the will of a being and yet claim that the being has free will. Yet God could still exert such control. That's no limitation at all.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 08-22-2014 12:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 08-23-2014 11:41 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 1864 (735792)
08-24-2014 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ringo
08-23-2014 11:41 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
That's just the sort of empty claim that an alien overlord would make.
If the claim is actually empty, yes.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 08-23-2014 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by ringo, posted 08-25-2014 11:36 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 1864 (735804)
08-25-2014 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by ringo
08-25-2014 11:36 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
How would you test it?
Testing may not be possible. But hypothetically speaking, the way I would evaluate such claims would be along the following lines.
1) does the rational given for restraint make sense?
2) has the rule of restraint ever been broken?
3) can I see a downside of not practicing restraint?
4) is the restraint part of a logical package that seems consistent?
5) is the constraint consistent with my view of God's nature.
I'm not convinced that God is the least bit interested in micromanaging minutiae on earth. Being the creator of the solar system and even of life itself does not imply any such ability. There are of course those who insist on a God designs every butterfly and snowflake and maintains the planets in their orbits.
But more importantly, I don't see an obligation on God's part to step in and save us from ourselves. I find it completely curious that non-believers insist on such an obligation.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by ringo, posted 08-25-2014 11:36 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2014 7:04 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 08-26-2014 12:06 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 1864 (735826)
08-26-2014 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Omnivorous
08-25-2014 9:59 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Covenants and promises suggest obligations.
Yes they do. But of course normally in a contract situation we would expect that the parties bind themselves only after making a promise. They are not obligated to enter a contract. I cannot write a U owe Me, and expect you to pay it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Omnivorous, posted 08-25-2014 9:59 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 1864 (735831)
08-26-2014 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Tangle
08-26-2014 2:35 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Christianity does it all the time. Be good and you'll go to heaven. It's a deal, if you're saying that this God is not obliged to keep his part of the bargain, that's not the message shouted from the pulpit and a lot of people are going to be very disapointed.
Curiously enough, that's not the kind of promise people are talking about here, because they cannot point to people who should be in heaven but are not. People are complaining that bad things exist in the world.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2014 2:35 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2014 9:52 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 1864 (735857)
08-27-2014 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by ringo
08-26-2014 12:06 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Apparently the multitudinous references in the Bible the "God the Father" have escaped your notice. Or don't you think fathers have obligations to their children?
No, the mentions of the God the Father have not escaped me. It may surprise you, but I do read the Bible. My wife and I discuss it, and argue about it frequently. I find your statement a bit condescending, but not so much as to be offensive.
The obligation parents have to children is simply to rear them properly. My oldest child is 23. I love him, of course. But what is my current obligation to him now?
Besides that, the Bible was written by men. Men err.
As a final statement, let me suggest that given that God did not birth any of us, the use of 'Father' to describe a relationship to God is pure metaphor. Arguments based on metaphor are extremely dangerous. In actuality, God owes us very little. Perhaps he owes it to the universe to keep us from screwing up anything other than our little corner, but given the distances to other places, and special relativity, that seems to be taken care of.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 08-26-2014 12:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by ringo, posted 08-27-2014 11:54 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 1864 (735859)
08-27-2014 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by ringo
08-26-2014 12:06 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
In fact, that's one of the more popular "proofs" that God exists.
There are no proofs.
If course your view of God's nature will be conisitent with your view of God's nature.
If that is true, it is only because I've taken the time to think about the issue. I assure you that it is generally easy to find confusion and inconsistencies in a believers view of God.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 08-26-2014 12:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 08-27-2014 11:56 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
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