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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 376 of 396 (849032)
02-21-2019 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by Thugpreacha
02-21-2019 9:54 AM


Re: The Roman Catholic Papal puppet Athanasius.
If I dig through his pasta

There is nothing to support his arguments in the pasta.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-21-2019 9:54 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-21-2019 7:45 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1520
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 377 of 396 (849036)
02-21-2019 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by Theodoric
02-21-2019 3:10 PM


Yes or no? (a test to determine if Theodoric is honest or dishonest)
quote:

There is nothing to support his arguments in the pasta.

Did I not have a "paste" of Robert Price saying that there is one piece of "powerful evidence" for Jesus being an actual person?

(Be advised that your honesty, or lack of, is being tested)

EDITING TO SAY This answer belongs in the actual thread you are ignoring the evidence.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by Theodoric, posted 02-21-2019 3:10 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
candle2
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 378 of 396 (849037)
02-21-2019 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by honda33
01-13-2007 10:04 PM


John 1:1 tells us that there was a point when only two Beings existed. One of these is identified as the Word. The Word was both with God (Theos) and God.

Theos (like Elohim in Gen. 1) is a word much like church, group, or committee. Christ has one church, but the one church has many members.

There is one God (Theos), but at the present time Theos consists of only two Beings.

Even though both have existed from eternity, the Being we now know as the Father is greater of the two. He is also the undisputed leader.

The Word created everything that is in existence. It was none other than He. Yet, their ultimate goal has been carefully planned out to the last little detail.

God (Both) wants a family; a family of God Beings. The Word, as Jesus, took on a different role. He was to become the first (this clearly shows there will be others) begotten Son of God After the resurrection Jesus became the first born Son of God (showing there will be others.

The Holy Spirit as a person is a lie. Nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to believe that the Holy Spirit is a person. Nowhere are we told that receiving eternal life is dependant on this belief.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by honda33, posted 01-13-2007 10:04 PM honda33 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-22-2019 11:52 PM candle2 has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1520
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 379 of 396 (849061)
02-22-2019 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by candle2
02-21-2019 8:34 PM


About the Holy Spirit. (question)
Where did this powerful "God", called the "Holy Spirit", come from?

How did this "Holy Spirit" issue, to SOME, suddenly loom so large after around 100 A.D. (or perhaps a bit earlier)?

I struggle, from the available documents (including the New Testament), to understand this one.

Now, in the 21st century, this "Holy Spirit" is taken to be something divine by hundreds of millions (if not billions) of people.

(Call it the "divine something" or "divine Something" or "Divine Something")

But, endless sermons aside, where (in the Christian documents) is the actual source material for this "Holy Spirit"?

Faith seemed to give up her scriptural demonstration pretty darn fast (especially when it came to Paul's letters). She has better things to do than worry about any real (early) Christian documents. Perhaps that is because preachers assured her that their sermons were "inspired" by the "Spirit" (himself?) itself, so that is all she needs, aside from a few token passages in the King James Bible itself?

Hell, I'm not a Christian, but I feel like - simply - invoking the Holy Council of Nicaea and just leaving it at that. (Just a "keep it simple, stupid" kinda solution).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by candle2, posted 02-21-2019 8:34 PM candle2 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-23-2019 1:45 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 380 of 396 (849062)
02-23-2019 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by LamarkNewAge
02-22-2019 11:52 PM


Re: About the Holy Spirit. (question)
Do you consider yourself part of any religion at all, or do you simply like copying and pasting old documents to make a particular case or another?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-22-2019 11:52 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-23-2019 9:39 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1520
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 381 of 396 (849082)
02-23-2019 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by Thugpreacha
02-23-2019 1:45 AM


Re: About the Holy Spirit. (question)
quote:

Do you consider yourself part of any religion at all, or do you simply like copying and pasting old documents to make a particular case or another?

I see there was no response to my actual question.

Since you changed the subject, I suppose I will respond to this "old documents" thingy you asked.

I suppose I will comment on the only thing I read today.

Today, I was reading the (beginning part) book of Julius Caesar's Gallic War history (an old school paperback book, the types that were really small in dimensions). It took place around 58 B.C. He was in conflict with GAUL (France), and he pointed out that the Gallic people call themselves "Celts" in their own language. It seems the Celtic people invaded the British Isles around 500 B.C. but their base was France. It was before the Germanic Franks invaded ("France") centuries later. The German and Belgae people were mentioned in Julius Caesar's war history. It was an example of North Europeans being mentioned by an Empire that ruled all the way to Persia.

The Romans controlled Palestine during this period (58 B.C.E.) and that would be the case for many hundreds of years (however, a few decades later, the Persians held Palestine for a few years until 37 B.C.E., and it was the Romans that helped to install Herod the Great after they drove out the Persians).

Back to the Gallic War.

We see some of the beginnings of the first Roman interactions of people( assuming the "Galatians" involved Gallic people and it was not simply a 100% non-Gallic group Paul talked to in "Galatia") who would interact with Paul during his missionary journeys.

(Gaul and Galatia were not the same thing mid you, but the name Galatia came from the Gauls. "Galatia" was Anatolian geography)

The interesting thing is that Christianity and Judaism seemed very relevant to the Galatian people Paul was talking to.

(I did not paste anything so I can't comment on that part)

From France to Rome to Palestine to Persia and beyond, we see interactions.

Do you have any theory on the Holy Spirit? Do Paul's Epistles help to inform us?

Candle2 seems to have some questions about this whole Holy Spirit theology.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-23-2019 1:45 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-23-2019 11:20 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 382 of 396 (849085)
02-23-2019 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by LamarkNewAge
02-23-2019 9:39 PM


Re: About the Holy Spirit. (question)
Do you have any theory on the Holy Spirit?
To me, the Holy Spirit is a belief. It cannot be a fact, nor can any amount of early writings document, prove, or disprove it. Back to my original question:
LNA writes:

Hell, I'm not a Christian, but I feel like - simply - invoking the Holy Council of Nicaea and just leaving it at that.

Do you have a belief at all, or are you just one who likes researching old documents? See...to me, old documents can prove interesting yet not entirely conclusive. Personally, I thought you had a good case going when you engaged the mythicists. All evidence I read shows me that Richard Carrier is trying to make a name for himself and for some odd reason has a motive to make Jesus vanish. Bart Ehrman responds to and defends himself from Richard Carrier here. Fuller Reply to Richard Carrier Admittedly, I have no solid evidence against Carriers claims and my judgment against his integrity is my own personal opinion.

I am convinced that many of these mythicists have an axe to grind, however.

Even our very own Theodoric, himself aligned with the mythicists, shows his feelings towards Christians many times. He is no doubt delighted to attempt to make Jesus go away.

It will never happen, however. Even if only a myth, the legend will continue as long as humanity lives. And though some Christians are in fact hateful and uninformed, there are many more good ones. Times will also come upon us where the belief will strengthen. Mark my words.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-23-2019 9:39 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-24-2019 12:41 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 385 by Theodoric, posted 02-24-2019 10:55 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 386 by ringo, posted 02-24-2019 1:23 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1520
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 383 of 396 (849086)
02-24-2019 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by Thugpreacha
02-23-2019 11:20 PM


Re: About the Holy Spirit. (question)
quote:

To me, the Holy Spirit is a belief. It cannot be a fact, nor can any amount of early writings document, prove, or disprove it.

I am interested in the "old testament" (not what you think, keep on reading) of popular religious concepts. Where did these things start? I remember hearing about the Irish people having held something of a pre-Patrick "Trinity" concept in their "Celtic Religion of Druidism". Naturally, it sounds like pagan Irish borrowing from Christian theology.

quote:

Do you have a belief at all, or are you just one who likes researching old documents? See...to me, old documents can prove interesting yet not entirely conclusive. Personally, I thought you had a good case going when you engaged the mythicists. All evidence I read shows me that Richard Carrier is trying to make a name for himself and for some odd reason has a motive to make Jesus vanish. Bart Ehrman responds to and defends himself from Richard Carrier here. Fuller Reply to Richard Carrier Admittedly, I have no solid evidence against Carriers claims and my judgment against his integrity is my own personal opinion.

I think Carrier has a desire to tear down bad ideas that seem to be held by too many academics. He wants some - currently majority supported - things to be seen as outdated, already.

He wants to show that the ground isn't as solid, on many things, as some like to make out.

He wants more attention to be paid to the broader world of mythology, and comparative religions, as much of it is unknown to most.

He, more importantly, blames academics for the incomplete picture the (interested) public gets.

I AM GLAD HE HAS A MARKET FOR THIS TYPE OF TARGETED RESEARCH.

quote:

I am convinced that many of these mythicists have an axe to grind, however.

Even our very own Theodoric, himself aligned with the mythicists, shows his feelings towards Christians many times. He is no doubt delighted to attempt to make Jesus go away.


I prefer not to assign motives.

The fact that there is a marketplace is a great thing.

I also am glad that the followers don't get too turned off by evidence (like Galatians 4:4) that severely weakens the most popular feature of their favorite researcher's work.

quote:

It will never happen, however. Even if only a myth, the legend will continue as long as humanity lives. And though some Christians are in fact hateful and uninformed, there are many more good ones. Times will also come upon us where the belief will strengthen. Mark my words.

Christian publishing houses, presses, colleges, etc. put out a massive amount of scholarly works each and every year.

Secular presses, colleges, publishers put out lots of works that fall into a category that can, perhaps, be roughly described as "biblical and ancient studies".

I doubt we would have such a market for such works if not for the large population of Christians.

Just be happy we all have what we have.

I have no ax to grind against anybody.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-23-2019 11:20 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-24-2019 6:03 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 384 of 396 (849087)
02-24-2019 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by LamarkNewAge
02-24-2019 12:41 AM


Re: About the Holy Spirit. (question)
LNA writes:

Do Paul's Epistles help to inform us?

I will agree with the idea that pauls Epistles helped form the bedrock of Christianity, particularly later Protestant Dogma. They are well written and in some parts seem inspired by more than a simple authors imagination, but of course we have no objective proof.
Candle2 seems to have some questions about this whole Holy Spirit theology.
I disagree with candles whole two beings thing.
candle2 writes:

The Holy Spirit as a person is a lie. Nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to believe that the Holy Spirit is a person. Nowhere are we told that receiving eternal life is dependant on this belief.

I think candle2 is wrong, but I need to do a bit of bible reading first.

And you never discuss your personal spirituality...are you atheist? Zoroastrian? unknown?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-24-2019 12:41 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by candle2, posted 02-24-2019 2:39 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 391 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-24-2019 4:52 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 385 of 396 (849088)
02-24-2019 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by Thugpreacha
02-23-2019 11:20 PM


Re: About the Holy Spirit. (question)
Even our very own Theodoric, himself aligned with the mythicists, shows his feelings towards Christians many times. He is no doubt delighted to attempt to make Jesus go away.

Why would you even attempt to interpret my motives? I do not take some sort of perverse pleasure in showing the lack historical evidence. You fundie types always impugn people, with skepticism toward your bronze age beliefs, as having ulterior motives.

I simply follow the facts and the evidence. There are no higher truths. There is simply where the evidence leads. History is my passion. Do not suppose to interpret my motives through your lenses of superstition.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-23-2019 11:20 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 386 of 396 (849092)
02-24-2019 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by Thugpreacha
02-23-2019 11:20 PM


Re: About the Holy Spirit. (question)
Phat writes:

He is no doubt delighted to attempt to make Jesus go away.

It will never happen, however. Even if only a myth, the legend will continue as long as humanity lives.


That's a completely empty prediction. No doubt the Greeks and the Vikings made the same prediction about their myths.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-23-2019 11:20 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 387 of 396 (849096)
02-24-2019 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by Thugpreacha
02-24-2019 6:03 AM


Re: About the Holy Spirit. (question)
In John 14, 15, & 16 we see where the Holy Spirit is called He. In this case He is the pronoun of Comforter. The prevailing logic is since Comforter is synonym for the Holy Spirit, and He is the pronoun for Comforter, that the Holy Spirit must be a person.

The Greek language, like Spanish and several others, assign gender to their pronouns. The actual gender is oftentimes not relevant. In one language (I don't recall which) the pronoun for bicycle is feminine. Therefore, it would be correct to say I rode my bicycle. I rode her alll day.

Now who would believe that the bicycle is a female?

The FACT is that the gender for Comforter is masculine; therefore, the pronoun for Comforter will be masculine.

Comfort describes what the Holy Spirit does, not what it is.

The Holy Spirit (Hagios--sacred or consecrated & Pneuma--current of air, breath, or breeze) is the "power" of God. It radiates from both the Father and the Son.

The Holy Spirit is how Jesus stated with confidence in John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." Jesus says in verse 21 that through the power of the Holy Spirit that He (Jesus) will manifest Himself to us.

Anyone who does not understand that the Father and Son are two distinct beings need to take reading comprehension courses. The Holy Bible tells us time and time again that one is the Father and the other is the Son (two).

If the Holy Spirit were a person who would He be? The cousin, or uncle perhaps.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-24-2019 6:03 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-24-2019 2:49 PM candle2 has responded
 Message 389 by ringo, posted 02-24-2019 3:07 PM candle2 has not yet responded
 Message 390 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-24-2019 4:38 PM candle2 has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 388 of 396 (849097)
02-24-2019 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by candle2
02-24-2019 2:39 PM


Re: About the Holy Spirit. (question)
Anyone who does not understand that the Father and Son are two distinct beings needs to take reading comprehension courses.
And yet there is but One God. Jesus is Gods human character. I think you agree. And I see your point about there being no necessity of having 3 in 1. 2 in 1 is enough to handle without confronting the legalistic polytheist accusations.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by candle2, posted 02-24-2019 2:39 PM candle2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by candle2, posted 02-25-2019 7:13 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 389 of 396 (849098)
02-24-2019 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by candle2
02-24-2019 2:39 PM


Re: About the Holy Spirit. (question)
candle2 writes:

The Holy Bible tells us time and time again that one is the Father and the other is the Son (two).


How about giving us a few examples?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by candle2, posted 02-24-2019 2:39 PM candle2 has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1520
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 390 of 396 (849106)
02-24-2019 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by candle2
02-24-2019 2:39 PM


Semitic gender of the "Holy Spirit". (question)
What is the gender?

What about the "Logos"?

What is the relation, if any?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by candle2, posted 02-24-2019 2:39 PM candle2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by candle2, posted 02-25-2019 6:39 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
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