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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
PaulK
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Posts: 16572
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 406 of 470 (879552)
07-18-2020 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 405 by Phat
07-17-2020 8:13 PM


Re: Rebellious Sons & Obedient Sons
quote:
No. Just because G o d foreknows does not make Him responsible

Of course it does. We are responsible for the foreseeable consequences of our actions.

[quote]... ant more than you guessing your 5 year olds reaction makes you responsible if in fact you never placed the cookie in his path

quote:
And God does not place every temptation in our daily paths either. ringo would argue that Gods foreknowledge makes Him responsible for everything but thats a huge and convenient copout.

I say that God’s foreknowledge makes him responsible for the consequences of his actions - because they are all foreseeable - and forseen by him. And as the creator of all, that includes everything.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Phat, posted 07-17-2020 8:13 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Phat, posted 07-19-2020 5:48 PM PaulK has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7949
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 407 of 470 (879556)
07-18-2020 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 405 by Phat
07-17-2020 8:13 PM


Re: Rebellious Sons & Obedient Sons
Yes. If you supplied a gun to your neighbour knowing with certainty that he would use it to murder his wife you are jointly charged with the crime. You have common purpose.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Phat, posted 07-17-2020 8:13 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18798
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 408 of 470 (879581)
07-18-2020 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by Phat
07-17-2020 2:00 PM


Re: Rebellious Sons & Obedient Sons
Phat writes:

Leaving an apple on the table could well be called a deliberate set-up, but it allowed for the possibility of disobedience.


But why is the possibility of disobedience "necessary"? Why does the whiny little god you've made up "require" obedience?

Edited by ringo, : Splling.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by Phat, posted 07-17-2020 2:00 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by Phat, posted 07-18-2020 2:40 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14655
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 409 of 470 (879588)
07-18-2020 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by ringo
07-18-2020 12:47 PM


Re: Rebellious Sons & Obedient Sons
why is it so deplorable to think about obeying? Who do you think YOU are, anyway?

AddByEdit:
The problem of course is that you have never seen a reason (or evidence) to believe in a higher power---certainly not One you would trust--and thus have never considered the option. At best you once fit in with a church and human authority. The reality of God never got you. Otherwise it would then be impossible to throw it away.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by ringo, posted 07-18-2020 12:47 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by ringo, posted 07-19-2020 10:24 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32955
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 410 of 470 (879589)
07-18-2020 3:03 PM


towards the topic
Phat, why don't you actually try to address the topic?

What does the Christian "Trinity" really mean and since it is an impossibility that is directly countered by almost everything in the Bible, why does it stand as an Article of Faith?

There are actual arguments to justify it but as so often the case they are purely power and political in nature and totally unrelated to any reasonable or logical or rational beliefs.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by Phat, posted 07-18-2020 3:05 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14655
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 411 of 470 (879590)
07-18-2020 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by jar
07-18-2020 3:03 PM


Re: towards the topic
And how does your favored Nicene Creed skirt the issue? I know you will trot out that old canard..."and was made man" but that in and of itself says nothing.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by jar, posted 07-18-2020 3:03 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by jar, posted 07-18-2020 4:40 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32955
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 412 of 470 (879593)
07-18-2020 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by Phat
07-18-2020 3:05 PM


Re: towards the topic
The Nicene Creed is unrelated to the meaning or acceptance of the Trinity . It is an Article of Faith. It does say that at that time to be a Christian one must believe in the characters God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It is the document that actually bring the Holy Spirit in as an individual.

But it is also quite clear that they are all separate and distinctive individuals and also that there is one holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

The idea though of some three in one, not just as expression of differing aspects or essences really is the product of the term "consubstantial". It's a great word because it can mean being of one substance or of one essence.

It's allowed the silliness to become so intrenched as to become "An Article of Faith"; ie: something so silly, so unreasonable, so illogical, so irrational, so unexplainable that it must simply be accepted with ever actually thinking about what it means, what is signifies or how totally unsupportable it might be.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Phat, posted 07-18-2020 3:05 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by Phat, posted 07-19-2020 2:39 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14655
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 413 of 470 (879612)
07-19-2020 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by jar
07-18-2020 4:40 PM


Re: towards the topic
jar writes:

The Nicene Creed is unrelated to the meaning or acceptance of the Trinity . It is an Article of Faith. It does say that at that time to be a Christian one must believe in the characters God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. (...)But it is also quite clear that they are all separate and distinctive individuals and also that there is one holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

Nonsense. Jesus and GOD were never meant to be separate and neither was the Holy Spirit...of which there would be no need for were "it" separate.
jar writes:

The idea though of some three in one, not just as expression of differing aspects or essences really is the product of the term "consubstantial". It's a great word because it can mean being of one substance or of one essence.

And yet you call the concept "silly". Did it ever occur to you that modern day logic does no service to belief in God? What ends up happening is a heresey much like your claim that Jesus was simply human while on earth and that the resurrection was nothing unique to Him that the rest of us won't experience. Which borders on blasphemy.

...something so silly, so unreasonable, so illogical, so irrational, so unexplainable that it must simply be accepted with ever actually thinking about what it means, what is signifies or how totally unsupportable it might be.
How about the idea of holy Communion? Why not label that as silly?
Luke 22:14-32 writes:

14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God."

17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22 The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him." 23 They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.

24 Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

31 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

The story includes God (Holy Father) and Jesus, the Son of Man.(and the Son of God) Satan is a character.The supernatural exists, as does the power of God incarnate.It is folly to try and explain the tales in modern terms for you reduce them to stories that we ourselves could fulfill. Jesus becomes just another human and GOD again becomes unknowable and an irrelevant Mystery. We are not secular humanists nor were we ever meant to be.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by jar, posted 07-18-2020 4:40 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by jar, posted 07-19-2020 7:52 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32955
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 414 of 470 (879624)
07-19-2020 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 413 by Phat
07-19-2020 2:39 AM


Re: towards the topic
Phat writes:

Jesus and GOD were never meant to be separate and neither was the Holy Spirit...of which there would be no need for were "it" separate.

Yawn. Have you ever read the Bible or the Creeds or ANY basic Christian history? Where does Jesus sit?

Phat writes:

And yet you call the concept "silly". Did it ever occur to you that modern day logic does no service to belief in God? What ends up happening is a heresey much like your claim that Jesus was simply human while on earth and that the resurrection was nothing unique to Him that the rest of us won't experience. Which borders on blasphemy.

Again, you are simply puking dogma. I have presented the reasoned argument to you on why Jesus was only human to you many, many times over the years here and you have NEVER provided a reasoned rebuttal.

Phat writes:

The story includes God (Holy Father) and Jesus, the Son of Man.(and the Son of God) Satan is a character.The supernatural exists, as does the power of God incarnate.It is folly to try and explain the tales in modern terms for you reduce them to stories that we ourselves could fulfill. Jesus becomes just another human and GOD again becomes unknowable and an irrelevant Mystery. We are not secular humanists nor were we ever meant to be.

And so once again absolutely no attempt at any form of reasoned argument, simply more word salad and dogma.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by Phat, posted 07-19-2020 2:39 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by Phat, posted 07-19-2020 10:13 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14655
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 415 of 470 (879630)
07-19-2020 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by jar
07-19-2020 7:52 AM


Re: towards the topic
Its because your reason isnt reasonable. You are breaking down the supernatural into natural explanations.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by jar, posted 07-19-2020 7:52 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by jar, posted 07-19-2020 10:47 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18798
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 416 of 470 (879631)
07-19-2020 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 409 by Phat
07-18-2020 2:40 PM


Re: Rebellious Sons & Obedient Sons
Phat writes:

why is it so deplorable to think about obeying?


It has nothing to do with being "deplorable". You claimed it was "necessary". Why is it necessary?

Phat writes:

The problem of course is that you have never seen a reason (or evidence) to believe in a higher power...


It has nothing to do with believing in a higher power. It's about OBEDIENCE. Why is it "necessary"?

Look at the prodigal son. What was necessary in that relationship was not obedience. If anything was necessary it was forgiveness - unconditional, inclusive forgiveness.

Phat writes:

The reality of God never got you.


The "reality" of God doesn't get to anybody because it isn't real. It's a fantasy.

It's possible that there is a GOD and it's possible that we will meet HER some day but until we do, there is no reality to it, only made-up and hoped-for fantasy.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by Phat, posted 07-18-2020 2:40 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by Phat, posted 07-19-2020 11:16 AM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32955
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 417 of 470 (879637)
07-19-2020 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by Phat
07-19-2020 10:13 AM


Re: towards the topic
Phat writes:

Its because your reason isnt reasonable. You are breaking down the supernatural into natural explanations.

LOL; so unnatural explanations are ...?

Once again Phat, you fail to provide any reasoned arguments or offer any reasoned explanation for the Trinity as marketed by much of modern Christianity.

But that's okay, modern Christianity fails at that as well.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Phat, posted 07-19-2020 10:13 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14655
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 418 of 470 (879640)
07-19-2020 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by ringo
07-19-2020 10:24 AM


Re: Rebellious Sons & Obedient Sons
Starting with Moose's Official Warning:
quote:
I'LL MAKE THIS AN OFFICIAL WARNING - ANY MESSAGES NOT HAVING SOME SORT OF CONNECTION TO THE TOPIC THEME MIGHT JUST TRIGGER A 2 DAY SUSPENSION OF THE POSTER.---Adminnemooseus

The main reason that I brought this topic back to life is that I wanted a place to discuss/debate the whole concept of the Holy Trinity. Ellis Potter pushes the belief that God(Jesus Dad,Creator of all seen and unseen...yes THAT One! ) is relational within Himself and that He talks to Himself just as we humans talk to ourselves in our own head and yet are not schizophrenic or bi-polar. Potter argues that no other human monotheistic gods do this.

This topic already had a somewhat well developed argument by old now inactive members such as sidelined and anastasia. My goal was to incorporate some of their points into our current debate/discussion. And then jar has to come along and attempt to upend the whole idea that God can be Trinitarian yet wholly monotheistic using modern logic and ignoring the fact that spiritual ideas are never formed through logic and evidence, as he attempts to do. They start with belief.

Moving on...

ringo writes:

The "reality" of God doesn't get to anybody because it isn't real. It's a fantasy.

It's possible that there is a GOD and it's possible that we will meet HER some day but until we do, there is no reality to it, only made-up and hoped-for fantasy.

Irrelevant assertions. First of all, Gods human character is male not female. (Jesus is male) Second of all, the story is not simply a fantasy. This is evident by the impact it has had on people, culture, and History. Fantasy's run out of steam long before having such impact.

(What I'm trying to emphasize to ringo is the idea that were we to apply;y the prodigal "son" parable to God and the Angels, Lucifer would be the prodigal. Its just that it is not yet time for reconciliation with this rebellious one.) Jesus is Gods character and God cannot rebel against Himself. )

ringo writes:

It has nothing to do with being "deplorable". You claimed it was "necessary". Why is it necessary?

The only reason that Monism within God and His creation was shattered is due to free will being allowed. Lucifers rebellion set up a limited dualism, limited only in that God has ultimate veto power. As far as human reality goes, however...dualism is the basic reality of life apart from the discipline of redemption through Trinitarian awareness.

ringo asks "why the need for obedience?" Answer: To preserve union as opposed to a dualistic diversity.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by ringo, posted 07-19-2020 10:24 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by PaulK, posted 07-19-2020 11:26 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 420 by ringo, posted 07-19-2020 3:39 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16572
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 419 of 470 (879641)
07-19-2020 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 418 by Phat
07-19-2020 11:16 AM


Re: Rebellious Sons & Obedient Sons
quote:
Ellis Potter pushes the belief that God(Jesus Dad,Creator of all seen and unseen...yes THAT One! ) is relational within Himself and that He talks to Himself just as we humans talk to ourselves in our own head and yet are not schizophrenic or bi-polar.

Talking to yourself isn’t the same as being two different people. (I don’t know if it’s related to the two hemispheres of the brain, but if it is it would be an indication that we aren’t as much of a unity as we like to think). Anyway the Trinity is a deeper division, and Potter argues for a 100% division which contradicts his idea here.

quote:
Potter argues that no other human monotheistic gods do this

I’ve already said this twice, but what about the Hindu Trimurti?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by Phat, posted 07-19-2020 11:16 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18798
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 420 of 470 (879659)
07-19-2020 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 418 by Phat
07-19-2020 11:16 AM


Re: Rebellious Sons & Obedient Sons
Phat writes:

First of all, Gods human character is male not female.


Get down off your high horse. You've used the female pronoun yourself.

Phat writes:

(Jesus is male)


That might be relevant if I had mentioned Jesus at all. But I was talking about GOD.

Phat writes:

Second of all, the story is not simply a fantasy.


That's an irrelevant assertion.

Phat writes:

This is evident by the impact it has had on people, culture, and History. Fantasy's run out of steam long before having such impact.


That nonsense has been covered many times before.

Phat writes:

What I'm trying to emphasize to ringo is the idea that were we to apply;y the prodigal "son" parable to God and the Angels, Lucifer would be the prodigal.


You have it backwards. The prodigal son parable definitely DOES apply to God and His children. The whole "Lucifer" bit is something that you are trying to spackle on. The prodigal son parable shows that your Lucifer nonsense is just made up.

Phat writes:

Jesus is Gods character and God cannot rebel against Himself.


Irrelevant assertion. And dead wrong, too. You mentioned yourself (didn't you?) that Jesus WAS tempted to rebel ("Take this cup from me.")

Phat writes:

ringo asks "why the need for obedience?" Answer: To preserve union as opposed to a dualistic diversity.


You're assuming the conclusion. Obedience MIGHT be necessary IF "dualistic diversity" was valid. But that 's the question. You can't use it as the answer.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by Phat, posted 07-19-2020 11:16 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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