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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
Phat
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Posts: 14272
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 421 of 436 (879662)
07-19-2020 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by PaulK
07-18-2020 12:20 AM


Re: Rebellious Sons & Obedient Sons
PK writes:

I say that God’s foreknowledge makes him responsible for the consequences of his actions - because they are all foreseeable - and forseen by him. And as the creator of all, that includes everything.

And I say that God is not responsible for free willed agents of His creation choosing to adapt a path that would not be preferable in the grand scheme of things. For if God was ultimately responsible---indeed liable---why even allow free will to potentially exist anyway?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2020 12:20 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by PaulK, posted 07-19-2020 5:50 PM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16454
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 422 of 436 (879663)
07-19-2020 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by Phat
07-19-2020 5:48 PM


Re: Rebellious Sons & Obedient Sons
quote:
And I say that God is not responsible for free willed agents of His creation choosing to adapt a path that would not be preferable in the grand scheme of things

You can say that but it still isn’t true.

quote:
For if God was ultimately responsible---indeed liable---why even allow free will to potentially exist anyway?

I don’t believe that libertarian free will can exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Phat, posted 07-19-2020 5:48 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Phat, posted 07-19-2020 5:53 PM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14272
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 423 of 436 (879665)
07-19-2020 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by PaulK
07-19-2020 5:50 PM


Re: Rebellious Sons & Obedient Sons
PK writes:

I don’t believe that libertarian free will can exist.

I'll have to look this term up. Potter makes a good point concerning Jesus temptations in the wilderness and before His crucifixion. Namely that there was a possibility that He could have failed. Thankfully for the Cosmos, He did not fail, however.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by PaulK, posted 07-19-2020 5:50 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 424 by PaulK, posted 07-19-2020 6:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16454
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 424 of 436 (879667)
07-19-2020 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Phat
07-19-2020 5:53 PM


Re: Rebellious Sons & Obedient Sons
Jesus could only have failed if God is not fully omniscient. If God were merely a passive observer, your argument would have merit, but as creator - and a creator who actively intervenes - if God is omniscient then God controls everything and has full responsibility.

Using free will as a form of “plausible deniability“ is unworthy of God. That sort of excuse is low even for a human.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Phat, posted 07-19-2020 5:53 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14272
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 425 of 436 (879680)
07-20-2020 7:51 AM


Libertarian Free Will
I looked the term up.
Wiki writes:

Question: "What is libertarian free will?"

Answer:Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces. According to the Pocket Dictionary of Apologetics & Philosophy of Religion (InterVarsity Press, 2002), libertarian free will is defined as “in ethics and metaphysics, the view that human beings sometimes can will more than one possibility. According to this view, a person who freely made a particular choice could have chosen differently, even if nothing about the past prior to the moment of choice had been different.” In the libertarian free will paradigm, the power of contrary choice reigns supreme. Without this ability to choose otherwise, libertarian free will proponents will claim that man cannot be held morally responsible for his actions.

As mentioned earlier, the word “autonomous” is key in understanding libertarian free will. The word basically means “self-government.” It is derived from two Greek words, autos and nomos, which mean “a law unto oneself.” This is libertarian free will in a nutshell. We, as free moral agents, can make our own decisions and are not subject to the will or determination of another. In any given situation, let’s call it X, we can freely choose to do action A. Furthermore, if situation X presents itself again, we can freely choose not to do A (~A).

The opposite of libertarian free will is called determinism, and determinism essentially denies free will altogether—our choices are determined and that’s that. In situation X, I will always choose to do action A, and in situation Y, I will choose to do ~A, etc. Instead of being autonomous beings, mankind is reduced to being automatons—beings who perform programmed responses to certain situations.(...)

So this brings up Jesus and temptation in the wilderness and before the cross in Gethsemane.

PaulK writes:

I don’t believe that libertarian free will can exist.

Wiki basically agrees with you:
Wiki writes:

Can a human being, a creature, be autonomous if God is sovereign? The obvious conclusion is that libertarian free will is incompatible with the sovereignty of God. Consider this passage from the book of Proverbs: “In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps” (Proverbs 16:9). This does not paint a picture of man as an autonomous being, but rather as man operating within the confines of a sovereign God.

And ringo earlier challenged me on this sub topic:

ringo writes:

At the risk of creating a false dichotomy: Either God created evil or He didn't create everything. Whether He does something "directly" or not is irrelevant. He pulled the trigger so you can't blame the bullet.

Potter agrees with something I used to always push that people never understood where I made it up at. The fact that Potter also says it shows me that it is an intuitive conclusion of the living Spirit (which teaches us all things)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


Replies to this message:
 Message 426 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2020 8:00 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16454
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 426 of 436 (879681)
07-20-2020 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 425 by Phat
07-20-2020 7:51 AM


Re: Libertarian Free Will
quote:
Wiki basically agrees with you

That quote does not. My assertion is that libertarian free will is a logical impossibility (unless a merely random element is accepted as “free will” - but how can we be held responsible for a random element?)

So, my objection has nothing to do with the theology.

quote:
Potter agrees with something I used to always push that people never understood where I made it up at. The fact that Potter also says it shows me that it is an intuitive conclusion of the living Spirit (which teaches us all things)

It really doesn’t.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Phat, posted 07-20-2020 7:51 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 427 by Phat, posted 07-20-2020 8:10 AM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14272
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 427 of 436 (879683)
07-20-2020 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 426 by PaulK
07-20-2020 8:00 AM


Re: Libertarian Free Will
Lets keep this one focused on the Trinity. Also I apologize in that I never finished my line of thought...maybe you could start a new topic on Libertarian Free Will specifically and perhaps Free Will in general. We could use an uncluttered platform on which to rant.

Add:

One that we had going a few years ago ended up well summarized by several participants.

Note:
Message 353 and the next few summations after that.

Another oldie but goodie: Free Will vs Determinism

Personally, I want to examine free wwill philosophically (and obviously hypothetically) the way that God Himself might see it. Xongsmith examined human responses in his topic and did a fine job of it too.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2020 8:00 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2020 8:24 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16454
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 428 of 436 (879685)
07-20-2020 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 427 by Phat
07-20-2020 8:10 AM


Re: Libertarian Free Will
I basically agree with Daniel Dennett on Free Will - he was cited in the discussion.

But if Libertarian Free Will is a logical impossibility and even God can’t arrange it then God certainly isn’t going to believe we have it..


This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Phat, posted 07-20-2020 8:10 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by Phat, posted 07-20-2020 11:45 AM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14272
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 429 of 436 (879694)
07-20-2020 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 428 by PaulK
07-20-2020 8:24 AM


Re: Libertarian Free Will
Danial Dennet is a curmudgeonly atheist philosopher...so I take his "wisdom" with a grain of salt. I'll look him up though...I've seen him spout atheistic nonsense with Harris, Dawkins, and Hitchens.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2020 8:24 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 430 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2020 11:49 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 431 by Tangle, posted 07-20-2020 12:09 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 432 by ringo, posted 07-20-2020 12:24 PM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16454
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 430 of 436 (879695)
07-20-2020 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 429 by Phat
07-20-2020 11:45 AM


Re: Libertarian Free Will
What I’ve read of Dennett is hardly curmudgeonly, and I don’t see why his religious beliefs should undermine his philosophical work any more than it would undermine Dawkin’s biological work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by Phat, posted 07-20-2020 11:45 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7795
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 431 of 436 (879696)
07-20-2020 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 429 by Phat
07-20-2020 11:45 AM


Re: Libertarian Free Will
I can guarantee that you've never heard Dennet talking nonsense. You may have heard him say stuff you don't like but he's not known for talking nonsense - not talking nonsense is what he has to do for a living.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by Phat, posted 07-20-2020 11:45 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18493
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 432 of 436 (879698)
07-20-2020 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 429 by Phat
07-20-2020 11:45 AM


Re: Libertarian Free Will
Phat writes:

Danial Dennet is a curmudgeonly atheist philosopher...so I take his "wisdom" with a grain of salt. I'll look him up though...I've seen him spout atheistic nonsense with Harris, Dawkins, and Hitchens.


You're making it pretty clear that your mind is closed like a bear trap.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by Phat, posted 07-20-2020 11:45 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by Phat, posted 07-20-2020 6:46 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14272
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 433 of 436 (879708)
07-20-2020 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 432 by ringo
07-20-2020 12:24 PM


Sizing Up Dennett
Taking information from this article: Daniel Dennett

He seems to have been one of the forerunners of humanism and the "New Atheism".
Trying to get a snapshot of his basic worldview:[quote]

  • While he is a confirmed compatibilist on free will, in "On Giving Libertarians What They Say They Want"—chapter 15 of his 1978 book Brainstorms[28]—Dennett articulated the case for a two-stage model of decision making in contrast to libertarian views.
  • Leading libertarian philosophers such as Robert Kane have rejected Dennett's model, specifically that random chance is directly involved in a decision, on the basis that they believe this eliminates the agent's motives and reasons, character and values, and feelings and desires. They claim that, if chance is the primary cause of decisions, then agents cannot be liable for resultant actions. Kane says: [As Dennett admits,] a causal indeterminist view of this deliberative kind does not give us everything libertarians have wanted from free will. For [the agent] does not have complete control over what chance images and other thoughts enter his mind or influence his deliberation. They simply come as they please. [The agent] does have some control after the chance considerations have occurred.

    Dennett thus believes to a degree in chance as a causative agent---a belief which I find as silly as you find in a "spiritual war".

    ringo writes:

    You're making it pretty clear that your mind is closed like a bear trap.

    No more than your mind is closed to any sort of possibility of a spiritual realm....largely due to the fact that finding evidence for it is objectively impossible.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 432 by ringo, posted 07-20-2020 12:24 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 434 by ringo, posted 07-21-2020 9:28 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 435 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2020 9:52 AM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18493
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.6


    Message 434 of 436 (879730)
    07-21-2020 9:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 433 by Phat
    07-20-2020 6:46 PM


    Re: Sizing Up Dennett
    Phat writes:

    No more than your mind is closed to any sort of possibility of a spiritual realm...


    Stop lying about me. I have told you many times that I would gladly believe if there was any reason to believe. You, on the other hand, have told me many times that you will never give up your beliefs.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 433 by Phat, posted 07-20-2020 6:46 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16454
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 1.6


    Message 435 of 436 (879734)
    07-21-2020 9:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 433 by Phat
    07-20-2020 6:46 PM


    Re: Sizing Up Dennett
    quote:
    Dennett thus believes to a degree in chance as a causative agent---a belief which I find as silly as you find in a "spiritual war".

    I don’t see any justification for that in what you’ve quoted.

    Even if you mean that Dennett is not a hard-core determinist (and you object to any idea of chance at all) you can’t justify it from what you’ve quoted.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 433 by Phat, posted 07-20-2020 6:46 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 436 by Phat, posted 07-21-2020 10:03 AM PaulK has not yet responded

      
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