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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
ringo
Member
Posts: 19238
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 466 of 510 (880645)
08-08-2020 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by Juvenissun
08-08-2020 7:30 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Juvenissun writes:

If A=B and B=C, would you agree that A=B=C?


That doesn't help the case for the Trinity. A, B and C are all separate entities. You're trying to prove that 1+1+1=3.

Juvenissun writes:

Deity usually has "spirit" which is another form of the deity who can reach out. Right?


No. Of course not. "Spirit" is an aspect of deity, not a separate deity.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Juvenissun, posted 08-08-2020 7:30 PM Juvenissun has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by Juvenissun, posted 08-09-2020 9:34 AM ringo has responded

  
Base12
Junior Member (Idle past 320 days)
Posts: 22
Joined: 07-12-2020


Message 467 of 510 (880656)
08-09-2020 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 437 by Base12
08-07-2020 2:37 AM


Base12 writes:

The Trinity is explained in this verse...
Romans 1:20
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

The Trinity or Godhead is what things are made of.

That's what the verse says, and that what I believe.

What are things made of that consist of three components?

Atoms. Simple.

Not sure why this is even a debate.

For those that are paying attention...

What did Ezekiel see?

Lol...

Matthew 13:13
"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

Some folks just choose to stay blind I suppose.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by Base12, posted 08-07-2020 2:37 AM Base12 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by Juvenissun, posted 08-09-2020 9:37 AM Base12 has not yet responded

  
Juvenissun
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 468 of 510 (880670)
08-09-2020 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 466 by ringo
08-08-2020 9:40 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
That doesn't help the case for the Trinity. A, B and C are all separate entities. You're trying to prove that 1+1+1=3.

No. Of course not. "Spirit" is an aspect of deity, not a separate deity.

the Bible says:
Jesus IS God; and
Spirit IS God.
That is enough. Whether this means one or three, it does not matter.

"When you see God, you are not really seeing God, but seeing the spirit of God." Does this statement make sense? Spirit is not an aspect (part) of God. Spirit and God are separable. That is why the Spirit is needed. Otherwise, God does not need Spirit.

Anyway, you want to see what the Bible says. And that is what the Bible says. It satisfied your question no matter you believe it or not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by ringo, posted 08-08-2020 9:40 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by ringo, posted 08-09-2020 3:30 PM Juvenissun has not yet responded
 Message 471 by harpo, posted 06-18-2021 10:23 PM Juvenissun has not yet responded

  
Juvenissun
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 469 of 510 (880671)
08-09-2020 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 467 by Base12
08-09-2020 1:11 AM


What did Ezekiel see?

How many times Ezekiel reincarnated so he can see something we can not? (sorry, can't resist)

Edited by Juvenissun, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by Base12, posted 08-09-2020 1:11 AM Base12 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19238
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 470 of 510 (880696)
08-09-2020 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by Juvenissun
08-09-2020 9:34 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Juvenissun writes:

the Bible says:
Jesus IS God; and
Spirit IS God.


You're going to have to start providing specific references so we can see if your reading is accurate.

Juvenissun writes:

Whether this means one or three, it does not matter.


Of course it matters. It's the difference between unity, binity and trinity. If you say Spot is a dog and Spot is brown, you're not talking about three entities. Or if you say Spot is brown and Rover is brown, you're not talking about three entities. Nor are you talking about one entity. So it is VERY important to read it exactly as written.

(By the way, I messed up the math in my previous message. It should have said, "You're trying to prove that 1+1+1=1.")

Juvenissun writes:

"When you see God, you are not really seeing God, but seeing the spirit of God." Does this statement make sense?


No.

Juvenissun writes:

Spirit is not an aspect (part) of God. Spirit and God are separable. That is why the Spirit is needed. Otherwise, God does not need Spirit.


What scripture are those statements based on?

Juvenissun writes:

Anyway, you want to see what the Bible says. And that is what the Bible says.


You're going to have to cite chapter and verse.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by Juvenissun, posted 08-09-2020 9:34 AM Juvenissun has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by Phat, posted 06-28-2021 12:51 AM ringo has responded

  
harpo
Inactive Junior Member


Message 471 of 510 (886927)
06-18-2021 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by Juvenissun
08-09-2020 9:34 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
bye,

My reason is because the left block says dBCodes on but I don't see them anywhere. I see smilies but I don't use them. I looked at FAQ and can't figure out why dBcodes are nowhere to be found. Please help.

Edited by harpo, : No reason given.

Edited by harpo, : No reason given.

Edited by harpo, : No reason given.

Edited by harpo, : No reason given.

Edited by harpo, : No reason given.

Edited by harpo, : No reason given.


From error to error we discover truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by Juvenissun, posted 08-09-2020 9:34 AM Juvenissun has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by Adminnemooseus, posted 06-20-2021 9:11 PM harpo has not yet responded

  
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3938
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 472 of 510 (886958)
06-20-2021 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by harpo
06-18-2021 10:23 PM


dBCode help
When creating or editing a message, you should be seeing a clickable (help) to the right of both "HTML On" and "dBCodes On". Click on those to get information on how to do things (or the link in the previous sentence to get to the dBCodes help). The help page should open as a new tab, at least is does for me in Firefox.

You can also use the "peek" at the bottom of anyone's message, to see the raw text that includes any coding used in that message.

Adminnemooseus


Or something like that©.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by harpo, posted 06-18-2021 10:23 PM harpo has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15617
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 473 of 510 (887003)
06-28-2021 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 470 by ringo
08-09-2020 3:30 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
ringo writes:

Why would different people have different standards for salvation? If one person MUST give up all of his possessions to be saved, how can anybody else do less?

What you miss is the individual awareness that Jesus has for each of us.

Let us take ringo as an example. If he ever married, to his wife he would be first a husband and intimate love. To his street and library buddies, he would be a friend who always made sure they had enough to eat. To his government, he would be just another one of many citizens....a number and a tax form. If he had a son or daughter, to them he would be Dad. A Father. And should he ever die, as Asgara, Buzsaw, RAZD, and Robin Rohan have done, to us at EvC he would be a comforting memory and an example through his words and actions.

To Jesus, GOD was not Loki. Or Allah. Or a Flippin spaghetti monster. GOD was (and is )His Father. He even said that "I and my Father are one." No other person has ever claimed as intimate of a relationship with a Creator nor have many even understood the uniqueness of a Creator of all seen and unseen vs a local mythos or legend.
As a teacher, He taught that intimacy with GOD, (Creator of all) was possible. He also mentioned to His Disciples that He must go (from this realm...this life) and that they would never be alone as they would have the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter with them always. He also sai at an earlier point that He would be with them always.
For the life of me, I can't figure out why so many people are so dense and clueless regarding the idea that 1+1+1=1. Ringo the Father, Ringo the internet friend/critic/fellow poster, Ringo the husband (if he ever married), and/or ringgo the friend closer than a brother are all aspects of one person. One character. Not 3 or 4 or 7.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by ringo, posted 08-09-2020 3:30 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by ringo, posted 06-28-2021 12:42 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15617
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 474 of 510 (887004)
06-28-2021 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 465 by ringo
08-08-2020 9:31 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
ringo writes:

I was responding to a supposed Bible reference to the Trinity by pointing out that that reference doesn't mention a "third member" at all.

That's because there is no "3rd" member. When Jesus tells you that He must leave yet will send the comforter, He is fulfilling the promise that He will never leave you(us) nor forsake you(us). The 3=1.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by ringo, posted 08-08-2020 9:31 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by PaulK, posted 06-28-2021 1:14 AM Phat has responded
 Message 480 by ringo, posted 06-28-2021 12:45 PM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16990
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 475 of 510 (887005)
06-28-2021 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by Phat
06-28-2021 12:58 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat then:
The third member is what makes believers unique from non believers.

Phat now:

quote:
That's because there is no "3rd" member.

Do remember to follow the context of the conversation.

And the subject.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Phat, posted 06-28-2021 12:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by Phat, posted 06-28-2021 1:21 AM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15617
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 476 of 510 (887006)
06-28-2021 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 475 by PaulK
06-28-2021 1:14 AM


The Meaning
Im trying. Of course, some of my views and beliefs evolve as I ponder them and question them. To be fair, I believe now that there is no 3. Jesus was and is God...in the flesh and now eternally. The Father is greater than a human could ever be, yet would be fully capable of manifesting through the character of a human.(a chosen unique human). I suppose one could argue that He could thus manifest through anyone or anything, and i wont bother arguing otherwise. All that I would claim is that Jesus as a human knew no sin. He was never separated from His Father except, perhaps for a necessary moment, on the cross. The subject is the meaning of the Trinity. Perhaps Trinity was the wrong description.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by PaulK, posted 06-28-2021 1:14 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by PaulK, posted 06-28-2021 1:26 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16990
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 477 of 510 (887007)
06-28-2021 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 476 by Phat
06-28-2021 1:21 AM


Re: The Meaning
quote:
Im trying. Of course, some of my views and beliefs evolve as I ponder them and question them

If you’ve changed your mind have the honesty to just say that instead of contradicting yourself. Admitting that Ringo was correct on that point rather than continuing to argue would be the way to go.

quote:
The subject is the meaning of the Trinity. Perhaps Trinity was the wrong description

No, the topic doesn’t magically become wrong because you’ve now rejected the idea of the Trinity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by Phat, posted 06-28-2021 1:21 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by Phat, posted 06-28-2021 1:45 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15617
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 478 of 510 (887008)
06-28-2021 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 477 by PaulK
06-28-2021 1:26 AM


Re: The Meaning
PaulK writes:

If you’ve changed your mind have the honesty to just say that instead of contradicting yourself.

Noted. I should have acknowledged what you say(or what Ringo said). Scripture does describe different and evolving ideas about God(GOD) and we have some clues about the ways that the Jews of Jesus' time thought about GOD. It seems safe to say, based on scripture, that no one knew GOD the way that Jesus did. At least no one whom was recorded.
the topic doesn’t magically become wrong because you’ve now rejected the idea of the Trinity.
I never said it should be changed. Lets go back.
sidelined(topic starter) writes:

I have long wondered just what the notion of a trinity was supposed to explain if the common understanding requires that the three are one.
I also would ask what the explanation is for the pregnancy experienced by Mary {wife of Joseph} if it is the case that the trinity are all the same since this would make Jesus the father of himself.

To which I responded (back then)
Phat in 2007 writes:

Personally, I am unsure whether or not I am a Trinitarian or not.

Thus I have not changed my belief all that much.

Lets see all that you have said over the years, while we are being critical.

To be fair, I come across as a Modalist in my arguments. Message 399

But you challenged my example of the Cookie and free will of the Son in that post.

PaulK writes:

The big problem here is that you are not your hypothetical son.

If you were to make it entirely about yourself it would be better. Intellectually you know that you shouldn’t eat the cookie. If there was another instance of you outside the room, he would say that you should not eat the cookie. But because you are there, in the room with that cookie you eat it anyway.

The whole point is that though Jesus has the free will to disobey or rebel, He never did so. Whether the Father and Son are the same is debatable. GOD would have no need of free will nor any reason to disobey Himself.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by PaulK, posted 06-28-2021 1:26 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19238
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 479 of 510 (887013)
06-28-2021 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by Phat
06-28-2021 12:51 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

What you miss is the individual awareness that Jesus has for each of us.


That's funny, coming from you.

Phat writes:

To Jesus, GOD was not Loki. Or Allah. Or a Flippin spaghetti monster. GOD was (and is )His Father. He even said that "I and my Father are one." No other person has ever claimed as intimate of a relationship with a Creator nor have many even understood the uniqueness of a Creator of all seen and unseen vs a local mythos or legend.


Speaking of awareness.

Every false Messiah makes the same claim, and a lot of evangelist too.

Phat writes:

As a teacher, He taught that intimacy with GOD, (Creator of all) was possible.


It would be handy if you gave some examples of that. Offhand, my impression is that He taught about our obligations to each other.

Phat writes:

He also mentioned to His Disciples that He must go (from this realm...this life) and that they would never be alone as they would have the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter with them always.


i.e. the message.

Phat writes:

For the life of me, I can't figure out why so many people are so dense and clueless regarding the idea that 1+1+1=1. Ringo the Father, Ringo the internet friend/critic/fellow poster, Ringo the husband (if he ever married), and/or ringgo the friend closer than a brother are all aspects of one person. One character. Not 3 or 4 or 7.


Duh. The reason we are baffled is because trinitarians constantly argue that The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are NOT "just different aspects" of the same entity.

And AGAIN, you didn't answer the question that you quoted:

quote:
Why would different people have different standards for salvation? If one person MUST give up all of his possessions to be saved, how can anybody else do less?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by Phat, posted 06-28-2021 12:51 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19238
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 480 of 510 (887014)
06-28-2021 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by Phat
06-28-2021 12:58 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

When Jesus tells you that He must leave yet will send the comforter, He is fulfilling the promise that He will never leave you(us) nor forsake you(us). The 3=1.


But He hasn't sent any comforter. So far, 3=0.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Phat, posted 06-28-2021 12:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by Phat, posted 06-29-2021 3:35 AM ringo has responded

  
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