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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 481 of 510 (887023)
06-29-2021 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 480 by ringo
06-28-2021 12:45 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
ringo writes:

But He hasn't sent any comforter.

Sez you. Many say otherwise. And surely you can't expect scientists to be able to go up to such a critter and slap a meter or measuring device on it. At best you could claim such a phenom to be a product of collective imagination, but to those who believe, the Holy Spirit serves His purpose. In fact, that is how people become believers. We believe, He responds, we receive.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by ringo, posted 06-28-2021 12:45 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by ringo, posted 06-29-2021 12:18 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 482 of 510 (887024)
06-29-2021 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 481 by Phat
06-29-2021 3:35 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

But He hasn't sent any comforter.


Sez you.

And you. You seem to be far from comfortable.

Phat writes:

Many say otherwise.


And many say St. Anthony comforts them. Anybody can say it.

Phat writes:

And surely you can't expect scientists to be able to go up to such a critter and slap a meter or measuring device on it.


Why the hell not? It's a convenient fiction to claim that He "doesn't want to be detected".

I could tell you that I have a million dollars in cash on my coffee table but you can't see it because it's specially made to be invisible to make it harder to steal. You wouldn't believe me, would you? You'd say you couldn't see it because it wasn't there.

Phat writes:

At best you could claim such a phenom to be a product of collective imagination...


That's one of several possible explanations. It's certainly a better explanation than "he's real".

Phat writes:

... but to those who believe, the Holy Spirit serves His purpose.


Nobody's denying that. But to those who believe in Allah, he also serves his purpose. And to those who believe in every other god, they also serve their purposes. They're all the same.

Phat writes:

In fact, that is how people become believers.


More often than not, people "become" believers because they were taught from birth to be believers.

Phat writes:

We believe, He responds, we receive.


Bullshit. A Muslim would say the same thing. Different gods, same "explanations'.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by Phat, posted 06-29-2021 3:35 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by Phat, posted 07-07-2021 10:09 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 483 of 510 (887072)
07-07-2021 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 482 by ringo
06-29-2021 12:18 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
You know, Ringo I can almost foresee how your response to this post will play out.

I was talking with the minister at my Mom's memorial yesterday. He is a minister at the retirement community which Mom lived at for many years, and we were discussing belief and some of my conversions online at EvC Forum. Of course I realize that credentials mean nothing in the context of our points made in our arguments here. What I will say is that when I talk with other believers the conversations usually follow a common understanding.
We believe because we are convinced.
You claim to have "once been a believer" but I don't believe that you ever thought the way that believers think. You have been a skeptic from day 1. One big clue is how you argue the illogic of the 1+1+1 argument. To believers, it is patently obvious. To skeptics and unbelievers, it seems to also be blindingly obvious the other way.

Rev Clavin has had a lot of experience talking with people and studying such questions and yet I was right on the page of what he believes. So now we are left with some questions.

1) Is there a "right" God? Is Jesus the only way that works or can one argue that any god will do? The short answer is that anyone could argue against Jesus being the only way and you continually do so. Since there is a spiritual conflict (which I see and believe) in the world, there never will be the obvious fact that there are not many gods. That argument is dead...you can have it. Though the only reason, I could see you believe it is that you like to argue. You really don't believe in any of them. In fact, you may argue that we humans simply make up the God we want. Your likely defense? See #2.

2) The Ringo/jar argument: Christianity is about what we do. The message. It has nothing necessarily to do with God being real. We cannot know.

This is the roadblock I always end up at when debating you. More proof in my mind that you never were a believer. How is it so easy to "unbelieve"? In fact, it seems to me that both you and jar were critical thinkers first and church members second. And neither of you can allow yourselves to believe what most Christians teach (and do). You seemingly prefer the company of secular do-gooders who have a beer with you while unloading a food truck.
This argument bothers me. Perhaps it should.

ringo writes:

many say St. Anthony comforts them. Anybody can say it.

This leads support to your idea that St.Anthony=Jesus=Leprechauns. Which is more evidence that you never were a believer.

ringo writes:

It's a convenient fiction to claim that He "doesn't want to be detected".

Convenient for whom? Ive never believed that.

ringo writes:

could tell you that I have a million dollars in cash on my coffee table but you can't see it because it's specially made to be invisible to make it harder to steal. You wouldn't believe me, would you? You'd say you couldn't see it because it wasn't there.

Why wouldn't I believe you? Perhaps because no sane person keeps a million dollars on their coffee table. But if it were in the bank, I would question you only because you claim to be lower on the economic totem pole than I am. And you are even proud of your position. Could it be that you gave away your house one spare change moment at a time? Is that why you support the idea that we ALL should give it all up?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by ringo, posted 06-29-2021 12:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 484 by nwr, posted 07-07-2021 10:38 AM Phat has responded
 Message 486 by ringo, posted 07-07-2021 12:59 PM Phat has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5805
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 484 of 510 (887074)
07-07-2021 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 483 by Phat
07-07-2021 10:09 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
The Ringo/jar argument: Christianity is about what we do.

Why call that "the Ringo/jar argument". Why not call it "The Jesus Argument" -- it is what Jesus clearly taught.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by Phat, posted 07-07-2021 10:09 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by Phat, posted 07-07-2021 10:55 AM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 485 of 510 (887075)
07-07-2021 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 484 by nwr
07-07-2021 10:38 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Except that Jesus never argued against God being real.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by nwr, posted 07-07-2021 10:38 AM nwr has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 487 by ringo, posted 07-07-2021 1:01 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 486 of 510 (887079)
07-07-2021 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by Phat
07-07-2021 10:09 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

You know, Ringo I can almost foresee how your response to this post will play out.


Well, you've been extremely bad at that in the past. You predict something, I explain how you're wrong and then you make the same prediction as if I had never said anything.

Phat writes:

You claim to have "once been a believer" but I don't believe that you ever thought the way that believers think.


See? There you go. You don't pay any attention to what I actually say. You believe what you want to believe, with no reference to reality.

Phat writes:

You have been a skeptic from day 1.


And As I keep telling you, that's a good thing. Anybody who is not a skeptic is liable to become a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Mormon, just because that's what he was always told.

Phat writes:

One big clue is how you argue the illogic of the 1+1+1 argument. To believers, it is patently obvious.


That isn't true. Not all believers are Trinitarians - and not all Trinitarians would agree with your simple-minded "explanation"..

Phat writes:

Rev Clavin....


Cliff Clavin is your pastor? That explains a lot.

Phat writes:

The short answer is that anyone could argue against Jesus being the only way and you continually do so.


And you have no counter-argument. All you do is shout swear-words like, "Skeptic!" Why don't you ever stick to a discussion?

Phat writes:

Since there is a spiritual conflict (which I see and believe) in the world, there never will be the obvious fact that there are not many gods.


On the contrary, "spiritual conflict" is drop-dead evidence that there are many gods. How could One God be in conflict?

Phat writes:

That argument is dead...


On the contrary, you have no counter-argument. You just keep running away from reality.

Phat writes:

Though the only reason, I could see you believe it is that you like to argue. You really don't believe in any of them.


At least I understand my own arguments. When you present an argument, it's usually more right-wing politics than theology and you usually don't understand it anyway.

If you want to deride my arguments, for Christ's sake DISCUSS them. Don't just say, "Nuh uh," and run away.

Phat writes:

How is it so easy to "unbelieve"?


It isn't. Read my posts.

Phat writes:

In fact, it seems to me that both you and jar were critical thinkers first and church members second.


Again, that would be a good thing - if it was true. Children should be taught critical thinking before they are ever allowed to set foot in a church.

But it isn't true. As I have said before, I was practically born in church. I could regurgitate Bible verses literally before I could read them. I was heavily indoctrinated in the crap you believe long before I ever heard of critical thinking.

Phat writes:

And neither of you can allow yourselves to believe what most Christians teach (and do).


You don't know what most Christians teach. In Canada, most Christians are Catholics, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc. - whom you would curse as "liberals". Stop pretending that you're part of some majority. You're not.

Phat writes:

You seemingly prefer the company of secular do-gooders who have a beer with you while unloading a food truck.


Why don't you read my posts? I have told you before that most of the people I know are Christians.

Phat writes:

This leads support to your idea that St.Anthony=Jesus=Leprechauns. Which is more evidence that you never were a believer.


Non sequitur.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

It's a convenient fiction to claim that He "doesn't want to be detected".


Convenient for whom? Ive never believed that

For you. You've said it many times, haven't you?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by Phat, posted 07-07-2021 10:09 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by Phat, posted 07-09-2021 6:54 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 487 of 510 (887080)
07-07-2021 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 485 by Phat
07-07-2021 10:55 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

Except that Jesus never argued against God being real.


But you reject what He taught.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by Phat, posted 07-07-2021 10:55 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 488 by Phat, posted 07-09-2021 2:28 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 488 of 510 (887085)
07-09-2021 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 487 by ringo
07-07-2021 1:01 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Rejecting Him....Rejecting what He taught....6 of 1 and a half dozen of another. You always. claim that I am nore anti Jesus than you are. this dead horse has been beaten enough.

I love and trust Jesus though I admittedly do not do everything He says. I am not alone in this behavior. And why you continually bring it up as an argumentative point puzzles me unless in so doing you mean to indict a larger group of Christians.

is the reason you rejected Christianity at least partly to do with what you saw as hypocrisy? If so...pot meet kettle.

Edited by Phat, : furthermore


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by ringo, posted 07-07-2021 1:01 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by ringo, posted 07-09-2021 12:18 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 489 of 510 (887086)
07-09-2021 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 486 by ringo
07-07-2021 12:59 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
You predict something, I explain how you're wrong and then you make the same prediction as if I had never said anything.
True. Im not ignoring you so much as I am reframing and rephrasing my argument. i dont look up everything you have said in the archives. Repitition happens.
You don't pay any attention to what I actually say. You believe what you want to believe, with no reference to reality.
Oh I try and understand you. To do that I attempt to engage you in dialogue.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by ringo, posted 07-07-2021 12:59 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by ringo, posted 07-09-2021 12:24 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 490 of 510 (887088)
07-09-2021 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 488 by Phat
07-09-2021 2:28 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

You always. claim that I am nore anti Jesus than you are. this dead horse has been beaten enough.


As long as you keep denying Jesus, I'm going to keep calling you out on it.

Phat writes:

I love and trust Jesus....


You love and trust the "Jesus" that you made up. You continually deny the one in the Book, the only one any evidence exists for.

Phat writes:

I am not alone in this behavior.


The behavior is common enough - but I don't think many professing Christians would reject the Bible as openly as you do, putting your own "experiences" above the "dusty old book".

Phat writes:

And why you continually bring it up as an argumentative point puzzles me...


As long as you keep denying Jesus, I keep pointing it out. What's puzzling about that?

Phat writes:

... unless in so doing you mean to indict a larger group of Christians.


If the shoe fits, they can wear it. I'd like to think that some people would take rejecting Jesus more seriously than you do.

Phat writes:

is the reason you rejected Christianity at least partly to do with what you saw as hypocrisy?


I've answered that question for you before. Read my posts.

No, I don't have a particular problem with hypocrites. And I don't "reject" Christianity any more than you reject Mormonism. Do you reject Mormonism because Mormons are hypocrites?


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by Phat, posted 07-09-2021 2:28 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 497 by Phat, posted 07-10-2021 9:36 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 491 of 510 (887089)
07-09-2021 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Phat
07-09-2021 6:54 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

Im not ignoring you so much as I am reframing and rephrasing my argument.


But your phrasing is always the same.

Phat writes:

Oh I try and understand you. To do that I attempt to engage you in dialogue.


You have hundreds of posts from me that you never answered. And you're constantly grave-digging old threads and trying to start Great Debates with anybody who might conceivably agree with you, so you can't claim you don't have time.

And you repeatedly refuse to talk about apologetics. How is any of that attempting to engage me in dialogue?


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Phat, posted 07-09-2021 6:54 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 492 by Phat, posted 07-10-2021 2:01 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 492 of 510 (887094)
07-10-2021 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 491 by ringo
07-09-2021 12:24 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
ringo writes:

And you repeatedly refuse to talk about apologetics. How is any of that attempting to engage me in dialogue?

Explain why 1+1+1=1 makes no sense
Can you conceive of a Creator of all seen and unseen? Can you conceive. of such a Being imparting His character into a human?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 491 by ringo, posted 07-09-2021 12:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by Tangle, posted 07-10-2021 2:32 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 494 by ringo, posted 07-10-2021 10:33 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8207
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 493 of 510 (887095)
07-10-2021 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 492 by Phat
07-10-2021 2:01 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

Explain why 1+1+1=1 makes no sense


Ask any five year old. But really, why would anyone care? It's just an angels on pinhead issue, totally pointless.

Can you conceive of a Creator of all seen and unseen?

No. (Even disregarding the silly terminology.) The idea that a 'someone' has to be involved just because we think the way we do is juvenile.

Can you conceive of such a Being imparting His character into a human?

Given what we know of the human character, the concept is totally preposterous isn't it? It's just human hubris as usual.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by Phat, posted 07-10-2021 2:01 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 494 of 510 (887101)
07-10-2021 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 492 by Phat
07-10-2021 2:01 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

Explain why 1+1+1=1 makes no sense


The onus is on you and your apologists to explain how it DOES make sense. The reason we use the mathematical analogy is because anybody who can count his own fingers can see that it's obviously false.

Phat writes:

Creator of all seen and unseen? Can you conceive. of such a Being imparting His character into a human?


Of course.

But that has nothing to do with any Trinity. Three and one at the same time is not possible.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by Phat, posted 07-10-2021 2:01 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by Phat, posted 07-10-2021 6:35 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 495 of 510 (887103)
07-10-2021 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 494 by ringo
07-10-2021 10:33 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Three and one at the same time is not possible.
First off, what defines possible?

Second, can you see a Creator and His human character operating at once as Two(essentially becoming One?)

Third, if the Creator of all seen and unseen so wanted, He could become all (pantheism) or infuse many sons and daughters (polytheism) and argue that either scenario is still Monotheism. Im speculating, but I still don't see your logic that 3 and 1 at the same time is impossible. With God ALL things are possible. I suppose that He could theoretically turn Ringo into a woman...or a bumblebee. What rules and guidelines would humans even be able to agree upon regarding the character and limits (f any) for God? I can hear you now...."science" you exclaim proudly.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by ringo, posted 07-10-2021 10:33 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by ringo, posted 07-10-2021 9:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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