Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 66 (9049 total)
30 online now:
Aussie, dwise1, PaulK, PurpleYouko, ringo, vimesey (6 members, 24 visitors)
Newest Member: Wes johnson
Post Volume: Total: 887,613 Year: 5,259/14,102 Month: 180/677 Week: 39/26 Day: 2/2 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 496 of 510 (887104)
07-10-2021 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 495 by Phat
07-10-2021 6:35 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

First off, what defines possible?


Possible is clearly defined. You can look it up as easily as anybody.

Phat writes:

Second, can you see a Creator and His human character operating at once as Two(essentially becoming One?)


As I said, that has nothing to do with any Trinity. You can have a cook and a waiter working together in a restaurant. That doesn't make them one person.

Phat writes:

Third, if the Creator of all seen and unseen so wanted, He could become all (pantheism) or infuse many sons and daughters (polytheism) and argue that either scenario is still Monotheism.


Nope. Poly is poly and mono is mono and never the twain shall meet. A creator can't just declare that black is white.

Phat writes:

Im speculating, but I still don't see your logic that 3 and 1 at the same time is impossible. With God ALL things are possible.


The next time a customer's bill comes to $3 and he offers you $1, maybe you'll see the logic.

Phat writes:

With God ALL things are possible.


You're the one who argues against that when you say that God can't be evil.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by Phat, posted 07-10-2021 6:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 497 of 510 (887105)
07-10-2021 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 490 by ringo
07-09-2021 12:18 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
ringo writes:

I'd like to think that some people would take rejecting Jesus more seriously than you do.

Paul the Apostle seems to think that everyone has rejected Him.

Romans 3:10-11 NKJV writes:

As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.

And this is the Apostle Paul...not some Pastafarian, or Leprechaunian or Buddhist. This is the man who argued philosophy.
Acts 17:16-32 NKJV writes:

Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him when he saw that the city was given over to idols. Therefore he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and with the Gentile worshipers, and in the marketplace daily with those who happened to be there. Then certain Epicurean and Stoic philosophers encountered him. And some said, “What does this babbler want to say?”

Others said, “He seems to be a proclaimer of foreign gods,” because he preached to them Jesus and the resurrection.

And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new doctrine is of which you speak? For you are bringing some strange things to our ears. Therefore we want to know what these things mean.” For all the Athenians and the foreigners who were there spent their time in nothing else but either to tell or to hear some new thing.

Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.

Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, (Or Leprechaun, or human tradition or Loki or some Hindu statue)something shaped by art and man’s devising.

Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” So Paul departed from among them. However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

The dusty old book explains itself quite well.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by ringo, posted 07-09-2021 12:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 498 by ringo, posted 07-10-2021 9:38 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 498 of 510 (887106)
07-10-2021 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 497 by Phat
07-10-2021 9:36 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

The dusty old book explains itself quite well.


Then why do you reject it when it says things you don't want to hear?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 497 by Phat, posted 07-10-2021 9:36 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 499 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 1:23 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 499 of 510 (887108)
07-11-2021 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 498 by ringo
07-10-2021 9:38 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
why must I listen to a character in a book? Seems a bit obsessive to me.

And if you care to share, why did you lose your house?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by ringo, posted 07-10-2021 9:38 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 500 by ringo, posted 07-11-2021 9:30 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 500 of 510 (887109)
07-11-2021 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 499 by Phat
07-11-2021 1:23 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

why must I listen to a character in a book?


Duh! You call yourself a "Christian". Christ is the character in the book.

It's like calling yourself a Marxist and disagreeing with what Marx said.

I keep asking you, if you're going to make up your own character, why do you even call him "Jesus"?

Phat writes:

Seems a bit obsessive to me.


Not nearly as crazy as communing with voices in your head. That's Charles Manson territory.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 1:23 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 501 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 3:41 PM ringo has responded
 Message 502 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 3:50 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 501 of 510 (887110)
07-11-2021 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by ringo
07-11-2021 9:30 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
I keep asking you, if you're going to make up your own character, why do you even call him "Jesus"?
How do you know He isn't? Some authors made up the Jesus in the book, according to you.

You can't hold me to a standard that you don't believe to be real.

And if you argue that you can, I ask you why my Jesus cannot be considered. The other Jesus is the product of human authorship....whats the difference?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by ringo, posted 07-11-2021 9:30 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2021 4:01 PM Phat has responded
 Message 506 by ringo, posted 07-11-2021 4:26 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 502 of 510 (887111)
07-11-2021 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by ringo
07-11-2021 9:30 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Not nearly as crazy as communing with voices in your head.
So if I wrote a story and narrated it to you on Audible, you would essentially be listening to voices in my head(and in my book) Again I ask you what the difference is. What good is it to have a stern commanding Jesus who tells us we must do the same as the rich young ruler...(who refused to listen too, by the way) and not relate to His character any more than people relating to our characters in our head? As for Charlie Manson, he was either certifiably deranged or harboring demons.

You can't argue my argument borrowing my beliefs to do so when you in fact (as does Tangle) see only characters in a book.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by ringo, posted 07-11-2021 9:30 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 508 by ringo, posted 07-11-2021 4:42 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8207
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 503 of 510 (887112)
07-11-2021 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 501 by Phat
07-11-2021 3:41 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

You can't hold me to a standard that you don't believe to be real.

Try, really try, to get your head round this. It's important. Not to us but to you.

We're trying to point out that you're not holding yourself to your own standard.

It's not a defence to say that we don't believe what you believe. You're just deflecting. If you're honest, you'd address what's being said.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 3:41 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 504 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 4:04 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 504 of 510 (887113)
07-11-2021 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 503 by Tangle
07-11-2021 4:01 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
My excuse, if I have one, is Message 497 Romans 3:10-11.

You don't get that nobody does what they should, though some put on a show.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 503 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2021 4:01 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 505 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2021 4:25 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 509 by ringo, posted 07-11-2021 4:45 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8207
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 505 of 510 (887114)
07-11-2021 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 504 by Phat
07-11-2021 4:04 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

ou don't get that nobody does what they should, though some put on a show.

I think you'll find that that is exactly our point.

You're the guy that talks to Jesus remember? You're the one that's saved. Yet you appear to be exactly like everyone else. Except you do the "Lord, Lord, Lord" stuff and watch a lot of YouTubes of people just like you.

How does that work?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 4:04 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 506 of 510 (887115)
07-11-2021 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 501 by Phat
07-11-2021 3:41 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

I keep asking you, if you're going to make up your own character, why do you even call him "Jesus"?


How do you know He isn't?

You expect people to believe there is a real Jesus alive today, and he's the one you made up, not the one in the Bible? Come on. Does that make sense to you at all?

As I keep asking you, if you think the Bible authors got it so wrong, why do you even use the same name for your version? Why don't you call your savior George?

Phat writes:

The other Jesus is the product of human authorship....whats the difference?


For one thing, there are four gospels. If you're going to make up your own religion, you should have three more apostles that support your story.

Edited by ringo, : Spell'ng.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 3:41 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 507 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 4:30 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 507 of 510 (887116)
07-11-2021 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 506 by ringo
07-11-2021 4:26 PM


Dusty Old Book and Human Characters
Phat writes:

The dusty old book explains itself quite well.


Then why do you reject it when it says things you don't want to hear?
back atcha.

Dusty Old Book,Jesus speaking writes:

48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

And you have the gall to suggest that only the message is important and that the messenger is little more than an envelope.

Your excuse has been that you are not a believer. Essentially you only use the parts of the message that support Socialism...which you like. The idea that you don't need to pay taxes to Caesar, perhaps? The fact that nothing belongs to any of us anyway and is essentially communally shared? The idea that the ravens (and liberal neighbors) will feed you and give you spare change? Truly we differ.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by ringo, posted 07-11-2021 4:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 510 by ringo, posted 07-11-2021 5:05 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 508 of 510 (887117)
07-11-2021 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 502 by Phat
07-11-2021 3:50 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

So if I wrote a story and narrated it to you on Audible, you would essentially be listening to voices in my head(and in my book)


Not at all. Not even close. The voices in your head are not audible. I can not hear them.

Phat writes:

Again I ask you what the difference is.


The difference is the word you hate so much: evidence. There is evidence of the made-up book. There is no evidence that the voices in your head are real.

Phat writes:

What good is it to have a stern commanding Jesus who tells us we must do the same as the rich young ruler...


It has nothing to do with whether you think it's "good" or not. It's about whether He said it or not. If you don't believe He said it, then you have no basis for believing He said He was the Son of God and you have no basis for believing He said He was coming back.

Phat writes:

As for Charlie Manson, he was either certifiably deranged or harboring demons.


So why was he deranged when he heard voices in his head and you're not? Why was he harboring demons and you're not?

Phat writes:

You can't argue my argument borrowing my beliefs to do so when you in fact (as does Tangle) see only characters in a book.


Utter nonsense. Whether or not the character is real has nothing to do with it.

You're trying to hijack the character, whether he was real or not. You could make up your own Long John Silver and claim yours is real and Stevenson's was not. Or you could make up your own Franklin Delano Roosevelt and claim yours is real and Eleanor's was not. You'd be just as crazy in those cases as you are in claiming your Jesus is real and the Biblical one is not.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 502 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 3:50 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 509 of 510 (887118)
07-11-2021 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 504 by Phat
07-11-2021 4:04 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:

You don't get that nobody does what they should....


It doesn't matter if nobody does it. The point is that you're claiming Jesus never said what He said.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 4:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 510 of 510 (887119)
07-11-2021 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 507 by Phat
07-11-2021 4:30 PM


Re: Dusty Old Book and Human Characters
Phat writes:

The dusty old book explains itself quite well.

ringo writes:

Then why do you reject it when it says things you don't want to hear?


back atcha.

Nope. You can't get away with that.

You claim to believe in Jesus. I don't. I don't have any reason to do what a fictional character said. But if you believe He isn't fictional, you do have an obligation to do what He said.

As for your Bible quote, why do you believe Jesus when He said He didn't have a demon? Why do you believe Jesus when He said he honored His Father? Why do you believe Jesus when He said He didn't seek His own glory? Why do you believe Jesus when He said He knew the Father and kept His word?

And yet you don't believe Him when He tells you to do something.

Phat writes:

And you have the gall to suggest that only the message is important and that the messenger is little more than an envelope.


It doesn't take any "gall' to tell the truth. And you know it's true: You don't throw away your bills can keep the envelopes.

Phat writes:

Your excuse has been that you are not a believer.


And it's a pretty damn good excuse. You don't believe in Zoroaster and you don't do has he says. You don't believe in Qutetzalcoatl and you don't do what he says. Why would you?

Phat writes:

Essentially you only use the parts of the message that support Socialism...which you like.


Go ahead and show us the parts that don't support socialism.

Phat writes:

The idea that you don't need to pay taxes to Caesar, perhaps?


What are you talking about? I have always advocated paying taxes.

Phat writes:

The fact that nothing belongs to any of us anyway and is essentially communally shared?


I have never said any such thing.

Phat writes:

The idea that the ravens (and liberal neighbors) will feed you and give you spare change?


That's the Bible's idea.

Phat writes:

Truly we differ.

Well, go to the door and pull your brain out of it's parking place.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 4:30 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021