Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 931 of 1864 (903020)
11-30-2022 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 927 by candle2
11-30-2022 8:33 AM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
candle2 writes:
Nwr, you are the perfect example of what I was talking
about.

You call castrating young boys good; when in fact it is
pure evil.
Making such serious accusations when they are clearly not true cements your credibility into the "crazy" bucket.
You really shouldn't do such things, it's not right. But it's more likely you'll just try again on your next victim, I suppose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 927 by candle2, posted 11-30-2022 8:33 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 934 by candle2, posted 12-03-2022 11:27 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 932 of 1864 (903021)
11-30-2022 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 927 by candle2
11-30-2022 8:33 AM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
You call castrating young boys good; when in fact it is
pure evil.
That's a false accusation. You are violating your commandment about bearing false witness.
All of the things that I mentioned about the Liberal
party is true.
There's no such thing as "the Liberal party" in the USA. I am not a member of any political party. I prefer to remain independent.
There are also some decent conservatives whom I can respect. But the Republican party in the USA has become very evil.
I grew up as a Christian, but came to doubt some of the core beliefs. But the real reason that I left Christianity, was because the church was so hopelessly unchristian.
Sorry to say it, but you are one of those who are unchristian. You spread false information, and you make false accusations. Jesus said "By their fruits ye shall know them." And that's why I see you as unchristian.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 927 by candle2, posted 11-30-2022 8:33 AM candle2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 933 by dwise1, posted 11-30-2022 11:41 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 933 of 1864 (903023)
11-30-2022 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 932 by nwr
11-30-2022 10:06 AM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
That's a false accusation. You are violating your commandment about bearing false witness.
You forget that candle2 has turned his back on the Christian god and now worships the Orange Calf. That means that he now follows Trump's Commandments (this list from Commentary: On Whining And Winning, Donald Trump's Ten Commandments):

  1. Honour Thy Money And Fame By Trumpeting Thy Successes
  2. Thou Shalt Not Speak Above A Fourth-Grade Vocabulary
  3. Thou Shalt Make Promises So Huuuuge And Vague People Cannot Doubt Thy Boldness
  4. Thou Shalt Never Apologize; But When Expedient, Just Explain That Offensive Remarks Were Misunderstood
  5. Thou Shalt Worship Repetition, For It Is The Essence Of Branding
  6. Thou Shalt Exalt Personality Over Principle And Policy
  7. Thou Shalt Respect Power Of Insults For They Shall Slay Your Enemies, Entertain The Masses
  8. Thou Shalt Never Pass Up Opportunity To Attack A Media Doubter For They Shall Be Intimidated
  9. Honour Thy Trolling And Tweeting To Know The Sweet Joy Of Mocking The Meek
  10. Remember The Days Of Whining Lead To Winning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 932 by nwr, posted 11-30-2022 10:06 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 827
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 934 of 1864 (903077)
12-03-2022 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 931 by Stile
11-30-2022 9:29 AM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
Stile, where have you been living? The moon.
To not know this is going on makes you look ignorant
of important facts.
I am seriously amazed that you don't know this.
I don't know where you get your news, but you need to
broaden your choices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 931 by Stile, posted 11-30-2022 9:29 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 936 by Phat, posted 12-03-2022 11:43 AM candle2 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 827
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 935 of 1864 (903079)
12-03-2022 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 929 by Theodoric
11-30-2022 9:21 AM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
Theodoric, believing that chemicals created life
without the slightest bit of proof casts too much
doubt on your ability to reason with any degree of
certainty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 929 by Theodoric, posted 11-30-2022 9:21 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 937 by Theodoric, posted 12-03-2022 12:31 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 936 of 1864 (903080)
12-03-2022 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 934 by candle2
12-03-2022 11:27 AM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
candle2, replying to Stile writes:
To not know this is going on makes you look ignorant
of important facts.
Its one thing to say that an aberrant practice occurred at some time within a given group. Its entirely another thing to label a group as representative of the behavior of one or more members and accuse that group of repeatedly engaging, supporting, or promoting such behavior or action. And I'm guessing that much of your news comes from Fox. They often repeat innuendo and sensationalize actions.
To be fair (politically) I will agree that there are similarities within human behavior between the ideology of the Left and the ideology of the Right. It seems that the media has a bias, but I will agree that we all need to examine several news sources in order to get a better picture of what the "real story" is on any given event.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 934 by candle2, posted 12-03-2022 11:27 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 938 by candle2, posted 12-03-2022 12:59 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 937 of 1864 (903083)
12-03-2022 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 935 by candle2
12-03-2022 11:35 AM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
Well as we have evidence that chemicals interact without any outside influence, we have proof if concept. We have absolutely no evidence for some sort of ethereal, sky daddy.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 935 by candle2, posted 12-03-2022 11:35 AM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 827
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 938 of 1864 (903086)
12-03-2022 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 936 by Phat
12-03-2022 11:43 AM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
Phat, nothing is more important than protecting the
weak and helpless among us.
It is the Democratic Party that pushes all of these
abhorrent practices. You cannot deny this.
I could not vote for a Republican candidate who supported
these views.
I am not hating on anyone. I am just flabagasted that
America has lost its moral values.
Phat, I mentioned on another post that the Church I am
a member of knew after WW2 that East and West Germany
would be reunited.
Even when the Berlin Wall was standing tall we knew
that Germany would be reunited.
We knew that Britain would get out of the European
Union.
We were able to understand who exactly Israel is,
especially the two brother tribes that Jacob (Israel)
specifically gave his name to. Genesis 48.
The two brothers received the birthright blessings.
Judah (Jews) received the promise that the Messiah
would come through them.
Genesis 49 and Deuteronomy 33 announces the latter
day blessing of each tribe.
Ephraim and Manasseh are listed under Joseph.
Understand that all tribes are Israelites, but not all
tribes are Jews.
It would take me days just to write out all that the
Bible says about The House of Judah and the House
of Israel. As well as trace them to their present dwellings.
The most important book that I recommend that you read
is Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright by J.H. Allen.
The book proves where the 12 tribes (13 since each of
Joseph's sons became a tribe) migrated to. It traces them
from Egypt to their allotted lands in the Middle East, to
their present locations.
I am from the tribe of Manasseh. My ancestors migrated
To America from Scotland. Many of America's forefathers
we're from Scotland or the UK (Ephraim).
The Bible lays out a very dark ending for all Israelites,
especially the English speaking Israelites. It is because
we turn our backs on Him and His ways.
At one time America and GB were a blessing to the world.
We gave a degree of stability to the world. But, we have
become corrupted.
One can buy the book or get it pdf. Another option is to
Check it out at the library. They might have to borrow it
from another library for you.
The only drawback to this is two weeks is all you get
with it.
I challenge you to read the book and then tell me that
America is not in serious trouble.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 936 by Phat, posted 12-03-2022 11:43 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 939 by Phat, posted 12-03-2022 3:56 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 939 of 1864 (903087)
12-03-2022 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 938 by candle2
12-03-2022 12:59 PM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
candle writes:
Phat, nothing is more important than protecting the
weak and helpless among us.
Who do you define as the weak and helpless? Be more specific.
candle writes:
It is the Democratic Party that pushes all of these abhorrent practices. You cannot deny this.
Which abhorrent practices are unique to Democrats? My Bible always told me that none were righteous. Jesus died for all. Whosoever(who so chooses) to believe, receive, and remain in Communion with said Holy Spirit will be saved. Right? So how are Democrats any less human than Republicans?
I am not hating on anyone. I am just flabbergasted that America has lost its moral values.
In my mind, we(the people) have changed. We lost a few and we gained a few. This is also not a party-specific (ideological) issue except in regard to my belief that people question and challenge authority (which authority, BTW?) more than they used to. And this is both a good and bad thing.
Phat, I mentioned on another post that the Church I am
a member of knew after WW2 that East and West Germany
would be reunited.
That's great, but did your specific church get a heavenly memo that other churches didn't receive?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 938 by candle2, posted 12-03-2022 12:59 PM candle2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 940 by AZPaul3, posted 12-03-2022 4:06 PM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 940 of 1864 (903088)
12-03-2022 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 939 by Phat
12-03-2022 3:56 PM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
candle2 writes:
Phat, I mentioned on another post that the Church I am
a member of knew after WW2 that East and West Germany
would be reunited.
Phat writes:
That's great, but did your specific church get a heavenly memo that other churches didn't receive?
Wait! That's the wrong question, Phat. Ask him how the Ukraine war ends? And the lotto numbers?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 939 by Phat, posted 12-03-2022 3:56 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 941 by Phat, posted 12-04-2022 8:06 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 941 of 1864 (903097)
12-04-2022 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 940 by AZPaul3
12-03-2022 4:06 PM


English Speaking Israelites?
candle2 writes:
Understand that all tribes are Israelites, but not all
tribes are Jews.
This is an interesting statement. I have a friend who knows his Bible up and down and is a believer. (He is dying of cancer, BTW..keep him in prayer...his name is Mike) and I will ask him about this. He knows more than a lot of Pastors,)
It would take me days just to write out all that the
Bible says about The House of Judah and the House
of Israel.
Again, I will ask a few of the Pastors whom I know. My own Pastor, Ed Taylor teaches some fairly in-depth Bible studies. I might ask him if he has ever heard of that book and/or what he thinks about the premises.
As well as trace them to their present dwellings.
I suppose that Geneology qualifies as a science. It certainly is based on historical records, but that would be quite a chore to trace the 12 tribes! I hope that your church isn't overly political. Ed sticks to the Bible and though he does believe we are in the latter days of humanity, he never mentions Democrats or Liberals. I don't trust churches that mix politics with religion.
The most important book that I recommend that you read
is Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright by J.H. Allen.
I'm checking the varied opinions of the internet regarding this book, just like Theodoric does to my sources for stuff. (goes to do a preliminary check)...wow...originally published 1902. This is an old school author! ...
Wiki writes:
John Harden Allen (1847 – May 14, 1930)[1]: 20  was an American minister associated with the Church of God (Holiness), and British Israelism. He came from Illinois, later moving to Missouri in 1879. Originally a pastor in the Methodist Episcopal Church, he later became a pastor in the Wesleyan Methodist Church in California. He was one of the co-founders of the Church of God (Holiness) in 1883.[2] He "evangelized throughout the West and eventually moved to Pasadena, California, where he died".
I never knew that Episcopalians and Methodists had anything in common. jar attended an Episcopalian church and was educated in a Christian school that I believe may have also been Episcopalian. I'll check later, but as you know jar was more of a logic, reason, and reality critical thinker and a self-proclaimed "Creedal Cradle Christian." He never let his personal beliefs get in the way of his scientific conclusions. He and I disagreed often, but I respected his criticism to a degree.
Now that jar is on sabbatical, the peanut gallery here at EvC has taken up his cause. Ringo is the chief critic assigned to me and keeps me on my toes in matters of expressing myself, always keeping facts, beliefs, evidence, and fantasy separated. He and most of the peanut gallery are non-believers. I wonder why that is?
(The E Word! )
Candle2 writes:
I am from the tribe of Manasseh. My ancestors migrated
To America from Scotland. Many of America's forefathers
we are from Scotland or the UK (Ephraim).
Are you by chance a member of The Church of God(Holiness)? My ancestors are from Wales. That's as far back as I know.
Which "Tribe" might they be from? We do know that not all of Scotland or Wales was populated exclusively by the 12 tribes, right?
The Bible lays out a very dark ending for all Israelites,
especially the English-speaking Israelites. It is because
we turn our backs on Him and His ways.
What's with this idea that *we* (you and I) are English-speaking Israelites?
At one time America and GB were a blessing to the world.
We gave a degree of stability to the world. But, we have
become corrupted.
According to Ray Dalio America and Britain were both pluralistic nations that represented two of the four "Empires" that he discusses in his book. Any dominant Empire "gives a degree of stability" to the world chiefly because no one wants to attack it.
We are now in transition between a declining American Empire and an Ascending Chinese one. I'm sure you have some comments on that!
I have another book (actually two) on China and the war that they are in with the declining "Empire". They are both audiobooks that I have on Alexa. Now that Jeff Bezos and Amazon have dropped Alexa as a future project, I hope that the device keeps working.
FYI these two books are by a retired General (likely conservative) who is nonetheless quite knowledgeable about China.
We can discuss them at the Book Nook. I'm in the process of elaborating on my book from Dalio, Principles for dealing with The Changing World Order but I will start a new Book Nook topic on the two books about China. I suppose you could start a topic there too...about your book from Allen.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 940 by AZPaul3, posted 12-03-2022 4:06 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 953 by candle2, posted 12-04-2022 3:18 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 942 of 1864 (903098)
12-04-2022 8:39 AM


Back To The Trinity (Remix)
Oops. I realized now that GDR couldnt reply, so I fixed it.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

Replies to this message:
 Message 943 by Phat, posted 12-04-2022 8:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 943 of 1864 (903100)
12-04-2022 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 942 by Phat
12-04-2022 8:39 AM


Re: Back To The Trinity (Remix)
Now let's poke Tangle. He may be off fishing and does not want to be bothered, however. I'll see.
Tangle in 2016 writes:
You have it the wrong way round, the difficult thing to swallow is that we're just another animal with a short and fixed lifespan and that this is all there is for us. We have to make the most of what we have now. In other words, we have to grow up and put aside childish beliefs.(...)And we know why that is, it's because we are an evolved ape with all the base instincts of territorialism, competition, carnivourness, and survival that you believe your god inflicted on the world.

What you actually have to explain is not all this biblical nonsense but why, having made us this way, he then commands us to be different.
Two "E"words come to mind.
Evolution
and Enlightenment.

In this context, evolution simply means human improvements throughout time. You guys have gone so far as to throw God away.
The origin of that began with the
Age of Enlightenment
quote:
The Enlightenment was preceded by the Scientific Revolution and the work of Francis Bacon, John Locke, and others. Some date the beginning of the Enlightenment to the publication of René Descartes' Discourse on the Method in 1637, featuring his famous dictum, Cogito, ergo sum ("I think, therefore I am"). Others cite the publication of Isaac Newton's Principia Mathematica (1687) as the culmination of the Scientific Revolution and the beginning of the Enlightenment. European historians traditionally date its beginning with the death of Louis XIV of France in 1715 and its end with the 1789 outbreak of the French Revolution. Many historians now date the end of the Enlightenment as the start of the 19th century, with the latest proposed year being the death of Immanuel Kant in 1804.
Philosophers and scientists of the period widely circulated their ideas through meetings at scientific academies, Masonic lodges, literary salons, coffeehouses, and in printed books, journals, and pamphlets. The ideas of the Enlightenment undermined the authority of the monarchy and the Catholic Church and paved the way for the political revolutions of the 18th and 19th centuries. A variety of 19th-century movements, including liberalism, communism, and neoclassicism, trace their intellectual heritage to the Enlightenment.[4]
The central doctrines of the Enlightenment were individual liberty and religious tolerance, in opposition to an absolute monarchy and the fixed dogmas of the Church.
My idea of "enlightenment, however, is that moment when one senses a connection emotionally with the Creator of all seen and unseen. As my blood sugars are dropping, i find myself able to write and express myself as I used to do.
To me, the idea of a Trinity in no way implies polytheism.
Christianity is and was expressed through Christ.
GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen (and the God of infinite multiverses, should they exist) is simply "the Father" to Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the comforter...the eternal presence (and awareness of this presence)
When He was said to proclaim that "I and My Father are One, He was implying that as a human, He fully understood and personified God's character. Of course, other religions may disagree, but among diversity, there can be unity.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 942 by Phat, posted 12-04-2022 8:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 944 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2022 12:45 PM Phat has replied
 Message 945 by Theodoric, posted 12-04-2022 12:51 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 944 of 1864 (903103)
12-04-2022 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 943 by Phat
12-04-2022 8:59 AM


Re: Back To The Trinity (Remix)
Phat writes:
In this context, evolution simply means human improvements throughout time.
Nonsense.
You guys have gone so far as to throw God away.
Also nonsense
Age of Enlightenment
More nonsense
My idea of "enlightenment, however, is that moment when one senses a connection emotionally with the Creator of all seen and unseen. As my blood sugars are dropping, i find myself able to write and express myself as I used to do.
Yeh, well that's not necessarily a good thing.
To me, the idea of a Trinity in no way implies polytheism.
As no one has ever made any kind of sense of the Trinity who cares?
Christianity is and was expressed through Christ.
GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen (and the God of infinite multiverses, should they exist) is simply "the Father" to Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the comforter...the eternal presence (and awareness of this presence)
When He was said to proclaim that "I and My Father are One, He was implying that as a human, He fully understood and personified God's character. Of course, other religions may disagree, but among diversity, there can be unity.
Cant

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 943 by Phat, posted 12-04-2022 8:59 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 946 by Phat, posted 12-04-2022 1:07 PM Tangle has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 945 of 1864 (903104)
12-04-2022 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 943 by Phat
12-04-2022 8:59 AM


Re: Back To The Trinity (Remix)
You have devolved to spewing word salad. Again, or maybe I should say still.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 943 by Phat, posted 12-04-2022 8:59 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 947 by Phat, posted 12-04-2022 1:21 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024