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Author Topic:   Humanity's Stuggle With Death.
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 104 (280813)
01-22-2006 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by nator
01-22-2006 5:35 PM


Re: For ramoss, nwr, and jar. Jar's points encompassed many of yours
quote:
When that bottle is empty, does that, in your eyes, constitute evidence that there is an afterlife?
Yep.
Someone should POTM that post.
This message has been edited by prophex, 01-22-2006 07:49 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by nator, posted 01-22-2006 5:35 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by nator, posted 01-22-2006 10:51 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 104 (280814)
01-22-2006 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by joshua221
01-22-2006 5:03 PM


and refutation
All of these feelings are then, fleeting?
Nope, they are the things that last.
Are these wonderful feelings that you have described limited to the life we live on earth? Will they someday not be with us?
No one living will ever know.
These fundemental questions form the roots to why I know that there is an afterlife.
It may be why you believe there is an afterlife, but you cannot know it.
I have begun to think that the other species were created for us.
Not only is that a very egotistical point of view, it makes GOD out to be an absolutely cruel unthinking bastard. Do you mean the billions and billions of critters that have existed were created just for your enjoyment? How sad and pitiful. How can you devalue life that much?
For us, there is an afterlife, a loving creator, and destiny.
While that might be a nice thing to believe, the reasons you've given so far have been pathetic.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by joshua221, posted 01-22-2006 5:03 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by joshua221, posted 01-22-2006 9:14 PM jar has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 104 (280837)
01-22-2006 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
01-22-2006 7:55 PM


Re: and refutation
quote:
Not only is that a very egotistical point of view, it makes GOD out to be an absolutely cruel unthinking bastard. Do you mean the billions and billions of critters that have existed were created just for your enjoyment? How sad and pitiful. How can you devalue life that much?
They don't have souls.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 01-22-2006 7:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 01-22-2006 9:19 PM joshua221 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 104 (280839)
01-22-2006 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by joshua221
01-22-2006 9:14 PM


Re: and refutation
First Charley, your answer has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. Second, while you might believe that, you cannot KNOW that. Third, why do you devalue life so much?
I'm sorry but I just don't see how anyone can hold such a tiny, limiting view of either life or GOD. How pitiful.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by joshua221, posted 01-22-2006 9:14 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by joshua221, posted 01-23-2006 3:40 PM jar has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 20 of 104 (280842)
01-22-2006 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by joshua221
01-22-2006 5:06 PM


Why can't elephants have a philosphy about the world? They are intelliigent, they have much bigger brains than humans, they mourn their dead, and they can communicate information that gets passed down generation to generation.
Your simple declaration is not a good enough answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by joshua221, posted 01-22-2006 5:06 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 21 of 104 (280851)
01-22-2006 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by joshua221
01-22-2006 7:47 PM


Re: For ramoss, nwr, and jar. Jar's points encompassed many of yours
When that bottle is empty, does that, in your eyes, constitute evidence that there is an afterlife?
quote:
Yep.
It is not evidence, though, of there being an afterlife.
It is only evidence (and I have said this to you before and you have not commented) of you wanting there to be an afterlife.
Just because it would be wonderful for there to be an afterlife so I could go on having memories of the taste of that glorious vinegar doesn't mean that there is one.
Wanting doesn't make something so. Wanting something to be true doesn't create reality.
Part of growing up is coming to terms with this aspect of life.
quote:
Someone should POTM that post.
Thanks, dear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by joshua221, posted 01-22-2006 7:47 PM joshua221 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Palador, posted 01-23-2006 1:19 AM nator has replied

  
Palador
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 104 (280864)
01-23-2006 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by nator
01-22-2006 10:51 PM


Re: For ramoss, nwr, and jar. Jar's points encompassed many of yours
I think that one of the most fundamental question that science fails to answer is the question of why. Why do we exist? Why was this universe created? The question stems more than a fear of death, but it is an ultimate realization that everything that we know and do is temporary.
Consider this. After we die, what mark of ours remains? 10 years after our death, there will be our children and possibly our grandchildren, and they will probably have inherited any property that we have left them.
100 years from now, our estate will probably been changed and has changed to many different hands. Our names and deeds are probably forgotten except to some geneologist and those great grandchildren who take an interest in our stories.
1000 years from now, nothing will remain except our names. Most likely, the only people who will remember that would be people who take an active role in geneology.
10,000 years from now, humanity as we know it will probably be gone.
100,000 years from now, we will probably be nothing more than dust, or perhaps fossils ourselves.
1,000,000,000 years from now, life on this planet will start to die as the sun expands, warming this planet and causing all water to evaporate into space.
A few billion years later, the sun will have expanded far enough to absorb the Earth, making this planet's demise permanent. Trillions of years later, the universe will end up into its terminal stage. Although scientists are not sure exactly how it will happen, either by a big Crunch, a Big Rip, or a Big Freeze, but life in this universe will cease to exist, in fact everything in this universe will cease to exist then.
So, in this view, the question must be asked. What is the purpose of life? Why do we exist if our existence is temporary, and anything we do is a temporary blip on a galactic scale? Is our very existence a cosmic joke?
edited by adding spacing for clarity~PB
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 01-23-2006 06:17 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by nator, posted 01-22-2006 10:51 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 01-23-2006 8:36 AM Palador has not replied
 Message 26 by jar, posted 01-23-2006 10:48 AM Palador has not replied
 Message 32 by nator, posted 01-23-2006 1:55 PM Palador has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 23 of 104 (280867)
01-23-2006 2:22 AM


A bottle of life
Prophex writes:
Why would life be worth living without eternity?
Schrafinator writes:
I have a tiny, 100ml bottle of very special Balsamic vinegar which was gifted to me by the brothers who make it on their family's land in Modena, Italy.
The minimum age for all of the vinegar in that bottle is at least 45 years old, but much of it (as it is a blend of various ages of vinegar) is much older. They only bottle around 10 of these per year.
I haven't opened the bottle yet, but I will. I will open it and very occasionally consume very small amounts of it.
It will be glorious; a transcendent culinary experience that very few people have ever gotten to experience, and I will get to repeat it many times, and share it with my family and special friends.
And then this tiny bottle of special, rare vinegar will be empty.
Schrafinator has only one of these bottles. When it's gone, it's gone. Prophex also has such a bottle. But in Prophex's closet, there are a million bottles more, each containing an even better Balsamic vinegar. And when that closet is finally empty, there are a million other closets, waiting to be opened. Prophex will never be without the most exquisite Balsamic vinegar. Lucky Prophex.
But who do you think will cherish their first bottle more, Prophex? Could it be you, who has more of the finest vinegar than you could ever consume in all eternity? Or would it perhaps be Schrafinator, who must make do with the one bottle she has?
You ask why life would be worth living without eternity? Well, something good is only worth a lot if there isn't too much of it around, so I would venture that, without eternity, life is the most precious thing we can ever hope to enjoy.
This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 23-Jan-2006 12:47 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-23-2006 11:22 AM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 39 by joshua221, posted 01-23-2006 3:42 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 24 of 104 (280887)
01-23-2006 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
01-14-2006 9:44 PM


Humanity's Struggles and Realizations
What is there other than this ultimate reunion of souls? There is our everyday lives, our everyday joys, friendships, passions, and callings. As Christians, we should know that the material is immaterial and that only the souls of all of the people whom we interact with really matter. In that sense, then, there is nothing that matters besides that communion. Lets be realistic, however! We do not go around preaching and/or even living as walking impartations of Christ all of the time. We do all of the things that humans do.
Why would life be worth living without eternity? Of course you and I know how grand it is to have met the Risen Christ in our innermost Spirit. For those who have no idea or awareness of what this is like, many, many reasons can be found...as Jar points out in his little list. (He makes tomatos sound quite heavenly!)
This struggle invokes feelings like no others, death becomes a benchmark of memory. What can honestly explain this? Why are humans like this? See my new quote? I read a good story by Alexander Solzhenitsyn that is found in this link.
Humans are indeed special. Each one of us is unique. The partiality that you speak of is evident, however. Christ has no partiality, and it is something that I have that hinders my effectiveness in doing His work. I trust, however, that He has made me special for a reason---perhaps He used my "thorn in the flesh" of talking to a specific group of people for His purpose...(But still pray for me....I need it! )
This message has been edited by Phat, 01-23-2006 06:13 AM

Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhlemed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 01-14-2006 9:44 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 104 (280894)
01-23-2006 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Palador
01-23-2006 1:19 AM


New Member Palador has some questions---
Palador writes:
I think that one of the most fundamental questions that science fails to answer is the question of why. Why do we exist? Why was this universe created? The question stems more than a fear of death, but it is an ultimate realization that everything that we know and do is temporary.
Hey Palador--welcome to our forum!
Palador writes:
Consider this. After we die, what mark of ours remains? 10 years after our death, there will be our children and possibly our grandchildren, and they will probably have inherited any property that we have left them.
Hopefully, we will have left more than a few dollars and a building or two. Hopefully, they will have learned something from having known us. Otherwise, you are right---whats the point??
Palador writes:
10,000 years from now, humanity as we know it will probably be gone.
100,000 years from now, we will probably be nothing more than dust, or perhaps fossils ourselves.
1,000,000,000 years from now, life on this planet will start to die as the sun expands, warming this planet and causing all water to evaporate into space.
A few billion years later, the sun will have expanded far enough to absorb the Earth, making this planet's demise permanent. Trillions of years later, the universe will end up into its terminal stage. Although scientists are not sure exactly how it will happen, either by a big Crunch, a Big Rip, or a Big Freeze, but life in this universe will cease to exist, in fact everything in this universe will cease to exist then.
I have a couple of choice Bible quotes that stir within me as I read your post!
NIV writes:
Matt 24:35- Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.~Jesus Christ
Palador writes:
What is the purpose of life? Why do we exist if our existence is temporary, and anything we do is a temporary blip on a galactic scale? Is our very existence a cosmic joke?
NIV writes:
Eccl 1:1-14- The words of the Teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem: "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless."
What does man gain from all his labor at which he toils under the sun? Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever. The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course.
All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again. All things are wearisome, more than one can say. The eye never has enough of seeing, nor the ear its fill of hearing.
What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one can say, "Look! This is something new"? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time. There is no remembrance of men of old, and even those who are yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow.
I, the Teacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem. I devoted myself to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under heaven. What a heavy burden God has laid on men!
I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
Of course, after reading Ecclesiastes, we find the conclusion of the author!
Eccl 12:9-14- Not only was the Teacher wise, but also he imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs. The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.
The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails-given by one Shepherd. Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them.
Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole [duty] of man.
For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.
Science and Religion meet in the school of Philosophy. It is true that we are nothing but cosmic dust in the grand scheme of things! Words and ideas transcend the material world, however.
Ps 30:9-10
"What gain is there in my destruction,in my going down into the pit?
Will the dust praise you?
Will it proclaim your faithfulness?
Hear, O LORD, and be merciful to me;
O LORD, be my help."
Perhaps the question is this: Which ideas, beliefs, and philosophies will survive eternally?
This message has been edited by Phat, 01-23-2006 06:46 AM
This message has been edited by Phat, 01-23-2006 06:48 AM

Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Palador, posted 01-23-2006 1:19 AM Palador has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 104 (280914)
01-23-2006 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Palador
01-23-2006 1:19 AM


Science and the Whys.
I think that one of the most fundamental question that science fails to answer is the question of why.
That is because for the most part Why is not the provence of science when why is used within the context of meaning or purpose.
Why do we exist? Why was this universe created? The question stems more than a fear of death, but it is an ultimate realization that everything that we know and do is temporary.
Those are individual subjective questions, certainly reasonable ones to speculate upon in religion or philosophy.
So, in this view, the question must be asked. What is the purpose of life? Why do we exist if our existence is temporary, and anything we do is a temporary blip on a galactic scale? Is our very existence a cosmic joke?
I don't see why the questions must be asked. Some may wish to ask them, but there is no absolute need for them to be asked or answered beyond an individuals desires.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Palador, posted 01-23-2006 1:19 AM Palador has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 27 of 104 (280918)
01-23-2006 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Parasomnium
01-23-2006 2:22 AM


Re: A bottle of life
in another discussion somewhere far from here, i suggested that mortality and end is the something that makes life so precious. i suggested that eternal (temporal) life would cheapen the experience. i was informed that the only reason i would say that is because i had never had the oppotunity of living forever. my specific suggestion was that we make all the lists of things we want to accomplish before death. we want to see the great wall or cure cancer or resolve ethnic conflict or whatever. my argument was that had we 'all the time in the world,' we'd get lazy and keep putting things off since it really wouldn't matter because we would ALWAYS have tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Parasomnium, posted 01-23-2006 2:22 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-23-2006 11:31 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 104 (280920)
01-23-2006 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by macaroniandcheese
01-23-2006 11:22 AM


Re: A bottle of life
in another discussion somewhere far from here, i suggested that mortality and end is the something that makes life so precious.
Yeah... I've suggested the same thing to Prophex the 5,218,327 other times he's brought up this exact same subject on the forum. There's no real reasoning with him along these lines, because he's working from the base assumption that if something ends, it becomes meaningless.
I feel kinda sorry for him.

"I fail to comprehend your indignation, sir. I've simply made the logical deduction that you are a liar."
-Spock

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-23-2006 11:22 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-23-2006 11:35 AM Dan Carroll has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 29 of 104 (280922)
01-23-2006 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Dan Carroll
01-23-2006 11:31 AM


Re: A bottle of life
i don't suppose he's ever had an orgasm. clear evidence that things that end have meaning. or maybe he's hung up on the afterglow.
i mean. there will always be another football season. other sports will have strikes or disputes that break them up and inhibit their meaning. wars come and go and make no difference. eventually even the genocide in darfur will end, even if only because they run out of people to kill. but there will always be another football season. and football is the most meaningful thing on the planet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-23-2006 11:31 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-23-2006 11:59 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied
 Message 33 by nator, posted 01-23-2006 2:00 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 30 of 104 (280925)
01-23-2006 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
01-14-2006 9:44 PM


What is there other than this ultimate reunion of souls?
My dad, who was a seminary-trained minister and a walking model of Christian behavior in most everything he did, told me once that there's no Biblical basis whatever for thinking we'll "be reunited with our loved ones" in the sweet by-and-by. United with the deity up there, yes, but not other people. If one of you Christians can show me otherwise, go ahead: I might have misunderstood him.
When I was younger I used to really fear my own death. Now that I'm old enough to sort of anticipate it, I don't so much. I fear the livin' crap out of the deaths of people close to me - hell, of my pets that I'm fond of. I don't want to be left alone. And, conversely, I'll quote an old Bob Dylan line:
"I don't mind dyin'
But I hate to leave my baby cryin'"
But as for myself, once I'm dead, I won't know it. I'll be gone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 01-14-2006 9:44 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by joshua221, posted 01-23-2006 3:45 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
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