Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,816 Year: 3,073/9,624 Month: 918/1,588 Week: 101/223 Day: 12/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Mary in the Roman Catholic Church - intercession or idolatry?
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 112 of 132 (252002)
10-15-2005 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
10-10-2005 10:36 AM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
i actually would say to trixie that that is entirely the point that god is our intercessor with god. the idea is that HE made the effort to reach us, not the other way round. we don't need an intercessor so much as we needed someone to reach us because we weren't/aren't listening.
i have known catholics that i did not believe worshipped mary, but i have also paid attention enough to know that it is very easy to believe things differently from one's establishment *raises hand*. i am not catholic and i do not propose to proclaim that all catholics are heretics etc. but the definition of idolotry as many protestants see it is that you place something at an equal or near-equal to god... ie you raise it above the level of man. there was nothing special about mary. and many protestants see that praying to her (or saints or angels) is distracting. many catholics, i imagine, do not. but they probably would never say anything about it because it is sometimes better to seek peace than to cause strife seeking conformity to a subjective truth.
is mary an idol and do at least some catholics worship her incorrectly? probably. i know polish catholics view mary VERY highly and this stems from their previous cultural pagan worship of the feminine. i think many cultures share that and mary is being abused as a kind of fertility goddess (if the shoe fits, hunt eggs on easter). but the idea that much of judeo-christianity stems from paganism is not foreign. passover resembles and probably comes from a farmer's sacrificial rite to ensure crop return in the future, easter is a fertility fest (they didn't even change the name) ensuring the bringing of life (new life/resurection/spring, come on this is child's play), and christmas has always been a festival of light to ensure the return of spring (jesus is the light of the world), rosh hashanna seems like a fall festival celebrating and bringing a sacrifice by fire in thanksgiving for the harvest, yom kippur seems like a preparation for winter and an acknowledgement of the hard times to come as well as allowing winter to give you a clear slate for the next year by ridding yourself of all the bad stuff you did last year and allowing for rebirth to come in the spring.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 10-10-2005 10:36 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Trixie, posted 10-15-2005 3:30 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 114 of 132 (252015)
10-15-2005 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Trixie
10-15-2005 3:30 PM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
i am suggesting that the worship of the mother of god is a practice inherent in the founding of the rcc immaterial of what church officials may be promoting at the moment. the original roman church was a highly organized body which was quite intent on the snazziness of the female (namely diana) and then christianity got grafted onto it... when the church became large-scale, it was because it was convenient. constantine saw christianity as being focussed and thus more apt to control people. so he jumped on board and then (just like so many in the old testament) purged out the competition. perhaps the church is not a reflection of this now, cool. all the better. but, to deny it's origins weakens your victory over them.
but there is undeniably a whole lot of extra-biblical mythology in the catholic church. recent movies can attest (no i don't trust hollywood to tell me about stuff, it's just the easiest rule of thumb).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Trixie, posted 10-15-2005 3:30 PM Trixie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Trixie, posted 10-15-2005 3:53 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 116 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-15-2005 5:14 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 117 of 132 (252038)
10-15-2005 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-15-2005 5:14 PM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
it is probably off topic (though i've been informed everything i said was off topic). but i don't mind.
i am quite opposed to the idea that the bible is the only place to learn about god. however. the catholic church is quite well known for it's mythologies.
frankly that was an irrelevant comment and i should strike it from the issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-15-2005 5:14 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-15-2005 6:58 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 118 of 132 (252039)
10-15-2005 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Trixie
10-15-2005 3:53 PM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
anyways.
what i am suggesting (since you are apparently incapable of inference) is that since the idea is so inherent in the foundations of the rcc, that people ascribe to it 1 without knowledge and 2 despite great endevour.
you seem to be taking great umbrage at my statements which is unfortunate and unnecessary. the point is that the difference of opinion comes from a difference of thought and goes far beyond being on two sides of an issue. many protestants view the mention of other individuals as being between a person and god as being idolotrous. even the existence of so many hierarchies of preists can be seen as such. many find the visual representation of anything as being at the very least distracting. personally, i find a displayed crucifix to be dangerous as one might be tempted to use it in a visualization which could distract one from an invisible god. and yet i own cross shaped jewelry (which i tend not to wear anymore as a symbol of my displeasure with the organized church as a whole and my distancing from the idea of human sacrifice). moreover, i am sure that there are protestants that view the great amount of ritual within the catholic church as idolotrous as well.
however, i imagine that catholics simply see their recognition of mary and the saints and the angels as just that--recognition of great service to god and a reflection of a desire to serve likewise.
it's a completely different paradigm and you can't compare the two. most protestants probably didn't know about the spear of destiny before constantine came out despite its alleged implications in world war ii. just as catholics weren't raised under calvanism or bred with the knowledge of the reformation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Trixie, posted 10-15-2005 3:53 PM Trixie has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 120 of 132 (252098)
10-16-2005 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-15-2005 6:58 PM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
well. to start, there's all the things about the heavenly wars that milton invented. note: a novelist, not a cleric. there's the spear of destiny, the seven deadly sins, the regions of hell from dante's inferno (again, novelist). the idea that mary remained a virgin after christ's birth (despite the bible saying he had brothers and the blatant knowledge that jewish tradition at the time supported large families in order to fulfill god's promise of expanding the line). i'd continue but i'm tired and (not being catholic) i'd have to ask someone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-15-2005 6:58 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-16-2005 9:30 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 123 of 132 (252152)
10-16-2005 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-16-2005 9:30 AM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
But there is a strong, authentic tradition in both Catholicism and Protestantism which displays a war in heaven -- the Book of Revelations (aka: the Book of the Apocalypse).
i was referring to the first war, the war of rebellion. there is no mention of that in the scripture. and revelation is a squished collection of prejudaic mythology anyways.
But that's fiction, isn't it? I don't think there's any official Catholic doctrine about the "spear of destiny".
official doctrine, well they probably don't preach about it in mass on sunday morning, but we protestant sure haven't heard of it and all the catholics i know have.
Well, the Scriptures do indicate that there are different regions of heaven, such as the Third Heaven for example. Likewise, the Scriptures do seem to indicate different regions for the dead, the righteous dead and the dead which are dammed (aka: sheol).
These ideas preceded Dante's by around a thousand years.
tell me where. old testament please. there's a whole lot of hell talk in the new that i see as having no basis. i don't trust inovation.
Again, there is a strong tradition from the earliest Church fathers of this. Even Luther, Calvin and Zwingli never doubted the perpetual virginity of Mary. It's only fairly recently within the Protestant churches that we see the idea of Mary having other children becoming a noteworthy idea within some Christian churches.
i just don't see whay it's important that she remain a virgin. but then i also don't see why people worship purity.
Hope I'm not boring you.
i just wonder why you're asking me.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 10-16-2005 11:07 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-16-2005 9:30 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 10-16-2005 11:18 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied
 Message 127 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-16-2005 12:50 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 128 of 132 (252187)
10-16-2005 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-16-2005 12:34 PM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
*shrugs* all my catholic friends knew about it and none of my protestant friends did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-16-2005 12:34 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024