Mary in the Roman Catholic Church - intercession or idolatry?

It is PRAYING TO Mary that is idolatrous, and putting her in the place of Jesus Christ, who according to scripture is our Intercessor. It is idolatry to treat her, a mere human being, as capable of hearing the prayers of millions of Catholics simultaneously. That is putting her in the role of God. It is completely irrelevant what she is being asked to do, that is, intercede with her Son or whatever. Only God can hear prayer.Just for the record, here is my post where I link to a few sites that discuss the point from a Protestant perspective. I included a site by Ian Paisley without knowing who he is, but what he said about Mariolatry is quite in tune with Reformation Protestant thought, and whatever else he may happen to believe doesn't enter into this particular subject.http://EvC Forum: RC Church accepts evolution? again? -->EvC Forum: RC Church accepts evolution? again?{Edit: Sorry, I didn't mean to address this to you, Phat. It was just my response to the topic itself.}This message has been edited by Faith, 10-10-2005 11:41 AM

Hi Iano,I think it's more to the point that Jesus is both God and Man, fully Man and fully God. In fact He wouldn't qualify to be our intercessor with the Father if He didn't share our nature.{By Edit: Oops, error here, but not sure how important it is. It is to qualify as our Mediator that He must share our nature. But that brings up another way Mary is put in the place of Christ by the RCC, as they have given her the title Mediatrix.}This message has been edited by Faith, 10-10-2005 11:48 AM

Not yet officially officialized, but getting there:

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1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice."

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The Virgin Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix and advocateThere is also opposition reported at the same site:

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Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God."

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The same site points out that Mary's supposed "immaculate conception" and assumption into heaven HAVE been made official, neither of which has any scriptural justification, and both of which usurp qualities of Christ.This message has been edited by Faith, 10-10-2005 12:08 PM

Putting Mary in the place of God is something Catholics should be very very worried about.This message has been edited by Faith, 10-10-2005 12:13 PM

Disagreeing with them is not misrepresenting them. They claim they are not putting Mary in the place of God. A simple consideration of what they actually teach and believe shows that they do. This is the Protestant position since the Reformation. Apparently the Reformation means little to many who call themselves Protestants these days, but it was a profound protest against this and many other errors of the Roman Church. The Reformers even identified the RCC with the Antichrist. You are of course free to disagree with the Reformers and side with the RCC. It's a free country.

I am simply participating on this thread to answer Trixie's questions, Phat. She challenged me about using the term "Mariolatry" to describe Catholic practice and I am answering her. I don't have any other motivation so I don't know why you keep talking about motivation.

I'm a Protestant. The Reformers denounced the RC Church for a whole raft of violations and mariolatry is only one of them. They also called the Papacy the Antichrist. As I've said, you are free to believe what you like, but I am representing the Reformation Protestant view of the RC Church quite accurately.

I've heard Mary worship discussed on similar programs, but it's true that salvation by grace is the main issue Protestants have with the RC Church.This message has been edited by Faith, 10-10-2005 04:50 PM

I've been to a Mass. What would that tell me? I'm also not relying on the few things I'm able to dig up on the internet to demonstrate what I'm saying. You have to read the whole Reformation literature and other books on the subject since then, or hear it preached on, and that does not all show up on the internet. There IS plenty on the internet on the subject but most of it is by unknown preachers, which I figure would not be accepted as evidence. But it's out there and easy to find.If you ask Mary to intercede with Jesus for you, from the Reformation Protestant point of view that is putting her in the place of God. You've pretty much said you do that, and that it is common Catholic practice. All there is to say about it is that Protestants consider that idolatry and Catholics don't.

A few million Catholics simultaneously asking a mere human being now in heaven to intercede for them is putting her in the place of God. Only God is capable of that. She can't hear them and if she could she couldn't answer them.This message has been edited by Faith, 10-10-2005 05:24 PM

Well, there are "Protestant" churches, as I have said, that seem to have forgotten what the Reformation was all about. Also, are you sure they don't believe it or you just never heard them discuss it?It is common knowledge that the Reformation was about rejecting all kinds of Roman Catholic unbiblical superstitions, such as the worship of saints, and Mary is one of them. You are free to disagree with them.I don't see any point in arguing this further.

Wouldn't you figure with millions of Catholics praying to Mary around the world that would be a lot of prayers for a human being to listen to and answer? It's no problem for God of course.Trixie, this is all I'm going to say on the subject. Believe as you please.

Asking a person to intercede is not putting the person in the place of God. Expecting a person who is in heaven to hear the prayers of millions day after day after day to intercede for them is putting her in the place of God. I didn't say "answer THEM" I said answer the prayers -- by interceding for them as they request.This is my last comment on this thread.This message has been edited by Faith, 10-10-2005 06:20 PM

Trixie, I don't want to rudely end this if you think there's more to discuss but it seems to me I've said all there is to say. However, it occurred to me that maybe there are some misunderstandings I could try to clear up. Christians intercede for each other all the time, pray for each other. There is nothing wrong with the idea of intercession itself. What's wrong is asking MARY to intercede for you, because she's in heaven, she's not here.And she's a mere human being. You are expecting her to hear these requests for her to intercede with God from millions upon millions of Catholics day in and day out. That is putting her in the place of God, who alone has the power to hear the requests of millions of people simultaneously and answer them.Besides that, the idea that Jesus would pay more attention to her requests than to any of us praying to Him personally is wrong. According to scripture He is our intercessor, speaking for us to the Father all the time. He hears our prayers directly. He loves us. Mary is just a human being, another of His sheep whom He loves, among millions who have already died and are in His company, as well as millions more who are still living. But He is God and she has no special powers whatever.This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 03:00 AM

Oh dear, no, I am saying that what I just described IS mariolatry, Trixie. Putting Mary in the place of God by expecting her to be able to answer requests for intercession, is a form of idolatry. That's what I believe and have been saying. It's like the peoples who bring gifts to their local gods to petition them for favors. That's part of what idolatry is, attributing powers that belong only to God to beings who have no such powers.{By Edit: Let me clarify again: It isn't intercession that is the unusual power, it's expecting her to hear and answer requests for intercession from millions of people. And considering it necessary to ask her to intercede instead of directly praying to Jesus, when scripture says Jesus is to be approached directly and personally, is part of the idolatry.}Other forms of worship of Mary, such as praying to her on one's knees, may not normally occur in the US or Britain or most of Europe, as I said on the other thread, but they certainly are practiced in many other places in the world where the RC Church is strong -- if Medjugorje --and Fatima too -- are any indication.This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 03:33 AM