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Author Topic:   Mary in the Roman Catholic Church - intercession or idolatry?
Phat
Member
Posts: 12178
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 46 of 132 (250665)
10-11-2005 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
10-10-2005 5:23 PM


Nitpicking theological differences
Faith, I think that we should look at this another way. You say:
Faith writes:

A few million Catholics simultaneously asking a mere human being now in heaven to intercede for them is putting her in the place of God. Only God is capable of that. She can't hear them and if she could she couldn't answer them.

We could say that a few million Protestants who think that a prayer hankie sent to them through the mail and placed on a sick person will heal that sick person is not also idolatry? http://www.hosanna.com.au/test/test2.htm
hosanna.com writes:

As Pastor Lorraine prayed for me, a growth has been taken away, an ulcer in my stomach has been healed miraculously, my leg lengthened, my back healed, and a severe pain in the groin was cured. Also, the cramp in my fingers and feet has been healed.


Of course, this is one of those unknown Pastors on the internet.

I say that we let the Catholic/Protestant debate end! There are no winners.

Now...about that whole mediation/intercession thing.

If I ask another Christian to pray for me, are they not mediating? Are they not interceding? Am I aware that they are mere humans? Why do I need them to pray for me? Why can't I just pray for myself?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 10-10-2005 5:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 6:00 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 48 by Brian, posted 10-11-2005 6:08 AM Phat has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 132 (250667)
10-11-2005 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
10-11-2005 5:52 AM


Re: Nitpicking theological differences
Protestants have their own errors, but they aren't institutionalized, they don't represent Protestantism as such, they are just individual false or fraudulent "ministries." The Catholic errors on the other hand are institutionalized.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 10-11-2005 5:52 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3038 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 48 of 132 (250669)
10-11-2005 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
10-11-2005 5:52 AM


Makes me glad to be an atheist
.

This message has been edited by Brian, 10-13-2005 02:44 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 10-11-2005 5:52 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Trixie, posted 10-11-2005 6:48 AM Brian has responded
 Message 50 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 7:05 AM Brian has not yet responded
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 10-11-2005 5:45 PM Brian has not yet responded

    
Trixie
Member (Idle past 1785 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 49 of 132 (250677)
10-11-2005 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Brian
10-11-2005 6:08 AM


Re: Makes me glad to be an atheist
From my point of view, Brian,there is no right way. There are many right ways. All I'm saying is that my chosen way isn't wrong because someone mistakenly thinks that I indulge in "Mariolatry".

How many times are we asked in church, either Protestant or RC to pray for others,to pray for the sick? Can we say that our minister/priest/pastor/vicar/whatever is guilty of idolatry by asking us to do that? Is he holding us up as divine by asking us this? Is he holding us up as equal to God?

As an aside, one of the things said in Mass is

"I confess, to Almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and what I have failed to do and I ask Blessed Mary, ever Virin, all the angels and saints and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God".

We ask our fellow church members to pray for us. Hey, I worship my fellow parishoners!! At least, according to Faith, I do.

Faith is perfectly free to find her own way to God, but this can be accomplished without the necessity of condemning the vast majority of humanity that don't believe in the exact same way that she does. If she's right about this, Heaven is going to be a very empty place.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Brian, posted 10-11-2005 6:08 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Brian, posted 10-11-2005 10:02 AM Trixie has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 20 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 50 of 132 (250680)
10-11-2005 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Brian
10-11-2005 6:08 AM


Re: Makes me glad to be an atheist
Brian writes:

Is it any wonder that there are so many athiests when the believers make things up about each other's faith just to try and get one over on them?

The amount of athiests who believe nothing would I imagine be relatively few. Athiests believe in something - just not God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Brian, posted 10-11-2005 6:08 AM Brian has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 51 of 132 (250694)
10-11-2005 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Faith
10-11-2005 2:59 AM


Re: This I can't let pass
Faith writes:

And she's a mere human being. You are expecting her to hear these requests for her to intercede with God from millions upon millions of Catholics day in and day out.


That might make it a quaint traditional practice, perhaps even a practice that could not possibly work. But it isn't at all obvious why that would make it idolatry.

I seem to recall that evangelical denominations have their own quaint traditional practices, although perhaps not as many as the RCC. (I don't want to pursue this, however, as it is OT).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 2:59 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3100
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 52 of 132 (250711)
10-11-2005 9:12 AM


Another Religion's Faith.
One thing I have noticed is that SOME groups have a tendancy to tell other groups what they 'actually' believe. The ones that are claiming that Roman Catholics are engaging in 'Idolatry' because they are 'worshipping Mary' seem very intent on telling Roman Catholics what they believe... even though that is not what the Roman Catholics say they believe.

These are the same people who tell the Jews all about the Jewish concept of the Messiah too.

:on edit.. one more comment

If I am going to figure out what a religion believes, I will ask the people who practice that religion, not a believer of another religion who is trying to 'discredit' the first religion, in an effort to 'prove' their religious beliefs correct.

This message has been edited by ramoss, 10-11-2005 09:21 AM


Replies to this message:
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 Message 65 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 2:46 PM ramoss has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3038 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 53 of 132 (250735)
10-11-2005 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Trixie
10-11-2005 6:48 AM


Re: Makes me glad to be an atheist
.

This message has been edited by Brian, 10-13-2005 02:44 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Trixie, posted 10-11-2005 6:48 AM Trixie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 10:23 AM Brian has responded
 Message 62 by jar, posted 10-11-2005 11:37 AM Brian has not yet responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3038 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 54 of 132 (250740)
10-11-2005 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Faith
10-11-2005 2:59 AM


Re: This I can't let pass
.

This message has been edited by Brian, 10-13-2005 02:45 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 2:59 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 1:35 PM Brian has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 20 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 55 of 132 (250748)
10-11-2005 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Brian
10-11-2005 10:02 AM


Re: Makes me glad to be an atheist
Brian writes:

One little problem, Faith is not a Christian.

An assertion which no doubt you cannot back up. But it does raise the interesting question: what is a Christian?

It could be Brand X(a) debating Brand X(b) arises out of a conviction from Brand X(a) that Brand X(b) is not really able to wash whiter than white - despite what the advertising says.

Close but no cigar so to speak? :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Brian, posted 10-11-2005 10:02 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Brian, posted 10-11-2005 10:26 AM iano has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3038 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 56 of 132 (250750)
10-11-2005 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by iano
10-11-2005 10:23 AM


Re: Makes me glad to be an atheist
.

This message has been edited by Brian, 10-17-2005 09:02 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 10:23 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 10:30 AM Brian has responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 20 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 57 of 132 (250752)
10-11-2005 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by ramoss
10-11-2005 9:12 AM


Re: Another Religion's Faith.
Ramoss writes:

If I am going to figure out what a religion believes, I will ask the people who practice that religion, not a believer of another religion who is trying to 'discredit' the first religion, in an effort to 'prove' their religious beliefs correct.

This would seem to be a reasonable approach. But there are problems with it. Asking National Socialism whether genocide was genocide would have resulted in an answer in the negative "Ridding the world of vermin" would likely be the answer received. Does this mean National Socialism was objectively about vermin eradication. Don't read into the analogy as me comparing RC with NS. I don't mean it so. But it illustrates the problems of dealing internally with a particular belief system


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ramoss, posted 10-11-2005 9:12 AM ramoss has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 20 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 58 of 132 (250753)
10-11-2005 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Brian
10-11-2005 10:26 AM


Re: Makes me glad to be an atheist
iano writes:

An assertion which no doubt you cannot back up.

Brian writes:

Is that what your crystal ball tells you?

I thought as much :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Brian, posted 10-11-2005 10:26 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Brian, posted 10-11-2005 10:31 AM iano has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3038 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 59 of 132 (250754)
10-11-2005 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by iano
10-11-2005 10:30 AM


Re: Makes me glad to be an atheist
.

This message has been edited by Brian, 10-17-2005 09:02 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 10:30 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 10:44 AM Brian has responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 20 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 60 of 132 (250760)
10-11-2005 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Brian
10-11-2005 10:31 AM


Re: Makes me glad to be an atheist
Brian writes:

Well, you claim I cannot back it up, let us see your proof that I cannot back it up.

I humbly withdraw my unfounded assertion. Now I'd ask you if you would like to substantiate your own unsubstantiated assertion. No probs if you prefer not to. But at least we can all bracket it as "unsubstantiated assertion despite request to do so" and consider its worth in that light..

:)

On second thoughts leave it. I'm starting to sound like CK. And it's not that I don't make unfounded assertion either...

This message has been edited by iano, 11-Oct-2005 03:47 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Brian, posted 10-11-2005 10:31 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Brian, posted 10-11-2005 10:48 AM iano has not yet responded

  
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