Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8913 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-24-2019 8:35 AM
30 online now:
Aussie, GDR, Percy (Admin), RAZD, Stile, vimesey (6 members, 24 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Post Volume:
Total: 854,578 Year: 9,614/19,786 Month: 2,036/2,119 Week: 72/724 Day: 4/68 Hour: 2/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
45
6
789Next
Author Topic:   Mary in the Roman Catholic Church - intercession or idolatry?
Trixie
Member (Idle past 1876 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 76 of 132 (250907)
10-11-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Faith
10-11-2005 5:49 PM


Re: No mere human being in heaven or on earth can intercede for millions
they can't hear the prayers of the living ASKING them to intercede and they certainly can't hear and respond to the prayers of MILLIONS AT ONCE. Only God can do such things.

And you know this how, exactly?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 5:49 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 6:05 PM Trixie has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31775
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 77 of 132 (250909)
10-11-2005 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Trixie
10-11-2005 6:00 PM


Re: No mere human being in heaven or on earth can intercede for millions
This is common sense. If you believe Mary is omniscient (which would mean that all other Christians who are in heaven are also omniscient), and that somehow that is not imputing the attributes of God to her, I've said my piece and I have nothing else to say.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Trixie, posted 10-11-2005 6:00 PM Trixie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Trixie, posted 10-11-2005 6:13 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-11-2005 6:15 PM Faith has responded
 Message 84 by jar, posted 10-11-2005 6:30 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Trixie
Member (Idle past 1876 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 78 of 132 (250910)
10-11-2005 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Faith
10-11-2005 5:55 PM


Re: No criticism allowed, huh?
If you believe that of Mary, why not believe it of any other deceased Christian? One could presumably pray to one's own mother in heaven, knowing that she would love us enough personally to pray particularly for us.

For the very simple reason that other deceased Christians, including my mother as far as I know, did not give birth to Christ or is this news to you? Why don't you actually read the "verbiage" I provided. The answers are there. I'm off to bed and I'll say a few Hail Marys, but I'll make sure I say them loudly so's to be heard over the din of the millions of others.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 5:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 6:11 PM Trixie has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31775
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 79 of 132 (250912)
10-11-2005 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Trixie
10-11-2005 6:07 PM


Re: No criticism allowed, huh?
That is precisely the problem. Mary's being Jesus' mother does NOT confer on her any special powers. There is absolutely NOTHING in scripture to justify such an idea, and in fact plenty in scripture to show that Jesus counted her among His followers as one of them, not in any way superior to them.

I understand that you are a Catholic and you believe what they have taught you and want to defend it. But my point of view is nothing more than what a Bible-believing Protestant can see from scripture itself. There is no point in continuing the argument, this being the case.

This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 06:12 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Trixie, posted 10-11-2005 6:07 PM Trixie has not yet responded

    
Trixie
Member (Idle past 1876 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 80 of 132 (250916)
10-11-2005 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
10-11-2005 6:05 PM


Re: No mere human being in heaven or on earth can intercede for millions
This is common sense

You didn't just say that after all the tripe you've written here, did you? Common sense......common sense?

We've to use our common sense when we view the resurrection of a dead body. Common sense says it couldn't happen, FAITH says it did. That's what faith is!

I'm off to bed before I laugh myself into a hernia.

Edited to add:

when you say

I understand that you are a Catholic and you believe what they have taught you

you're forgetting that until a few years ago I was a Protestant and still thought the same of the RCC without any of their teaching. Not only that, but currently the vast majority of Protestants are not of the opinion that it is idolatry and they're certainly not following the teachings of the RCC. Oh, I forgot, everyone is out of step but Faith.

This message has been edited by Trixie, 10-11-2005 06:18 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 6:05 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 132 (250918)
10-11-2005 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
10-11-2005 6:05 PM


Re: No mere human being in heaven or on earth can intercede for millions
If you believe Mary is omniscient (which would mean that all other Christians who are in heaven are also omniscient)

BUT SHE GAVE BIRTH TO GOD!!!!

And if you believe that she cannot here one prayer then why does a million prayers make it any different?

...but he couldn't teleport one mile and they say he can teleport a million miles!? shah...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 6:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 6:25 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31775
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 82 of 132 (250924)
10-11-2005 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by New Cat's Eye
10-11-2005 6:15 PM


Re: No mere human being in heaven or on earth can intercede for millions
They are two different points. She can't hear anything from heaven, period. That's one point. Another point that ought to cinch it is that the idea that Catholics have that she should not only be able to hear from heaven at all, but actually register the prayers of millions of Catholics at once, makes it even more of an imputation of the powers of God.

At the time of the development of the idea of the "mother of God" there were warnings from some thoughtful men of the Church that while it is a defensible title of honor for Mary, it could all too easily lead to just what it has led to, an imputation of powers to her that amounts to idolatry.

She is the human mother of the human Jesus who happens to be God. She has no divinity in herself. She conceived by the Holy Spirit, and Jesus, her Son, is therefore both God from His Father and full human being from His mother. She is nothing but a human being, a faithful follower of God but only a human being, nothing more.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-11-2005 6:15 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Asgara, posted 10-11-2005 6:31 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 88 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-11-2005 6:38 PM Faith has responded

    
Philip
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 83 of 132 (250925)
10-11-2005 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trixie
10-10-2005 9:38 AM


Mary: as Ashtoroth (Queen of Heaven)
This idol (also known as Easter) is so far out that only the wilfully ignorant and Allah (Ishtar) worshipers continue to subscribe along with the billion or so "Catholics".

(This queen of heaven was Solomon's downfall (via his wives) and the downfall of many Judao-Christian religions)

Thank you for your concern in this matter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Trixie, posted 10-10-2005 9:38 AM Trixie has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30994
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 84 of 132 (250926)
10-11-2005 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
10-11-2005 6:05 PM


Still waiting for Faith to provide SOME support for her assertions
Faith, before you continue spouting nonsense how about answer Message 70?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 6:05 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 473 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 85 of 132 (250927)
10-11-2005 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
10-11-2005 6:25 PM


Re: No mere human being in heaven or on earth can intercede for millions
I'm not a xian, let alone a Catholic but I don't remember anything in the bible that states this...

She can't hear anything from heaven, period

Chapter and verse please? Where does it state that those in heaven can not hear anything from Earth?


Asgara
"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

select * from USERS where CLUE > 0

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 6:25 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 132 (250928)
10-11-2005 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
10-11-2005 4:24 PM


She herself would be appalled at what is done in her name.

She would be appaled at you telling people how whe would feel.

Please admit that you don't know how someone who is dead and heaven would feel or you are claiming to be omniscient and are putting yourself in the place of God.

She is not this goddess that the RC church has made of her.

:rolleyes:

She was a simple devout Jewish girl, pure in heart, and highly blessed to be the mother of the Messiah, but still simply an ordinary human being.

Here is what the Angel Gabriel said to Mary:

The Angel Gabriel writes:


Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you

for you have found favor with God

He didn't say Hello mere human.... God favors Mary, even god places her apart from other people

Mary writes:

My soul magnifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;

Her soul magnifies the Lord and God regards her and she even says, herself, that generations will call her blessed.

Sounds to me like she is more than a mere ordinary human, what do you think?

Jesus Himself makes sure that she is kept in the background in order to prevent exactly this exaltation of her that has been done by the RC Church.

Please support this with bible quotations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 4:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 6:33 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 9:41 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31775
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 87 of 132 (250930)
10-11-2005 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by New Cat's Eye
10-11-2005 6:31 PM


I've already said she was blessed to be the mother of the Messiah. That doesn't make her more than a human being.

Many others in scripture have "found favor with" God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-11-2005 6:31 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 132 (250932)
10-11-2005 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
10-11-2005 6:25 PM


Re: No mere human being in heaven or on earth can intercede for millions
She can't hear anything from heaven, period.

How do you know? Maybe everyone in heaven can hear people on earth, and see them too far all I know. How can you make this claim? Where can I learn this other than from you?

but actually register the prayers of millions of Catholics at once, makes it even more of an imputation of the powers of God.

Lets just stick to the one prayer thing and then move on to this.

She is the human mother of the human Jesus who happens to be God.

You make it sound like she was picked at random.

She is nothing but a human being, a faithful follower of God but only a human being, nothing more.

Clearly this contradicts the bible as I showed in my previous post. You are so disrespectfull to Jesus' mother and thus Jesus himself, you should be ashamed of yourself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 6:25 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 6:42 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31775
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 89 of 132 (250937)
10-11-2005 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by New Cat's Eye
10-11-2005 6:38 PM


Re: No mere human being in heaven or on earth can intercede for millions
Excuse me, I didn't mean they can't hear anything at all. I have no idea what if anything they might be able to "hear." The point is that they cannot hear prayers. That is in God's power only.

Really, those who have made a little godlet out of the humble Mary are the ones who should be ashamed of themselves.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-11-2005 6:38 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Asgara, posted 10-11-2005 6:52 PM Faith has responded
 Message 91 by jar, posted 10-11-2005 6:56 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 94 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-11-2005 8:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Asgara
Member (Idle past 473 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 90 of 132 (250944)
10-11-2005 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
10-11-2005 6:42 PM


Re: No mere human being in heaven or on earth can intercede for millions
How does..."they can't hear prayers" follow from "I have no idea what if anything they might be able to 'hear'"?

Why don't you just admit that your entire problem is one of your own opinion and you have no more biblical backing for your opinion than you say the RCC have?


Asgara
"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

select * from USERS where CLUE > 0

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 6:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 7:10 PM Asgara has not yet responded

    
Prev1
...
45
6
789Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019