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Author | Topic: Is Akhenaton the founder of monotheism? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Nearly everything is syncretistic-- culture, religion, literature, TV plot lines... What is the point?
quote: You've agreed that Hinduism is polytheistic. Now it appears that you are arguing that it isn't 'really' polytheistic. Which is it? And why?
quote: Really? I've read monographs of simple cultures wherein the individuals worshipped spirits by offerings of food and drink, or other valuables, by providing a dedicated and sacred place for such things, by making promises and asking for blessings. Exactly how is that not like one would worship a god?
quote: You might wish to specify when you are speaking jargon rather than English. And you might also wish to specify whose jargon it is that you are speaking. Otherwise, you come off as pretentious and arrogant.
quote: The argument appears to me to be whether Israelite monotheism was inherited from a particular group of Egyptians or developed independently. I fail to understand how you can apply the ideas of evolutionary homology and analogy to this issue. It just doesn't make sense. Maybe you could try again with less ill-wielded jargon?
quote: Did you notice that they changed the name of the diety as well as much of the ritual, according, of course, to Holmes' suggestion? This would make the enterprise covert, which is exactly the point.
quote: They were kicked out. They were banished. They fled to where that ruling class could not, or cared not to, reach them. They loved their god so much they ran away from the powers that be until they arrived at a place where they could fear their god without fear of those irritating temporal authorities.
quote: On both counts... you have got to be joking? Judaism is not egalitarian, even today. It is, and was more so in the past, heavily patriarchal. The Mosaic Law was a dime a dozen at the time. Learn your history.
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.theology.edu/egypt3.htm ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Speel-yi Inactive Member |
Can you cite a source for any of these claims?
I'll cut to the chase on one point here.
quote: Civilization pertains to the building of cities. Culture pertains to the transmission of knowledge, although that is an incomplete definition. You can have a culture without civilization, but you can't have a civilization without culture. Thus, foragers have culture, but they are not civilized. I'm not being fast and loose with my definitions, they are accepted norms and easily found in any dictionary. Can you name another one of these dozen or so legal systems like the Mosaic Law? I'd be interested to know about what they were. The Code of Hammurabi for instance specified penalties for an elite killing a commoner and it simply meant paying a fine. It also punished women for adultery, but not men. The punishment was death for the woman BTW. Then you should also know that there is no known society that is not patriarchal. All are ruled by men.
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John Inactive Member |
...the rat must have sent the post before I finished it.
[This message has been edited by John, 09-23-2003]
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Interesting that you ask, since all three paragraphs prior to your 'cutting to the chase' were questions. Would you mind addressing them?
quote: LOL... I was foolish enough to assume you were referring to a system of categorization used by some anthropologists-- hunter/gatherer, sedentary agricultural, tribal, civilization. Apparently you were not.
quote: You've just equivocated on the word. "Civilized" and "civilization", though derived from the same root-- Latin civis-- cannot be juxtaposed as if they were opposites. The meanings are quite different.
quote: In what dictionary did you find "pertaining to building cities"? I looked and can't find such a reference.
Definitions of civilization - OneLook Dictionary Search Perhaps you would be interested in what I did find, however?
American Heritage Dictionary writes: The type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch: Mayan civilization; the civilization of ancient Rome. Encarta writes: 4. populated areas: places where people live, rather than uninhabited areas Merriam-Webster writes: 1 a : a relatively high level of cultural and technological development; specifically : the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained b : the culture characteristic of a particular time or place Cambridge writes: human society with its highly developed social organizations, or the culture and way of life of a society or country at a particular period in time Webster's 1828 edition writes: 1. The act of civilizing, or the state of being civilized; the state of being refined in manners, from the grossness of savage life and improved in arts and learning. 2. The act of rendering a criminal process civil. I did not say you were playing fast and loose with your definitions. I said you were talking jargon, not identifying it as such, and having a hissy fit because someone used a valid plain english definition. I assumed you were using terms you picked up in an intro Anth. class but it turns out to be much less explicable.
quote: I provided a link. Did you not read it? By the way, 'dime a dozen' is colloquial english for 'enough that one isn't special.' It isn't a reference to an actual count of objects.
quote: Have you read Leviticus? I must assume you haven't because it is full of the same disparities.
Lev. 20:9 writes: For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. Hardly civilized, eh?
Lev 19:20 writes: And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. The woman is a slave and has no choice, yet scourge her anyway?
Lev. 21:9 writes: And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. Burned to death for a boff? I wouldn't be so quick to raise up the Mosaic law as a standard for living. We've got slave buying instructions in 25:45-46. And this gem... my fav.
Lev. writes: 27:3 And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary.27:4 And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels. Males (5 - 20 years old) are worth 20 shekels. Females are worth 10 27:5 And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels. 27:6 Males (< 5 years old) are worth 5 shekels. Females are worth 3 And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. 27:7 And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels. Look at that. God likes men better. This is not egalitarian.
quote: I try not to know things that are false. There is, for example, the Mosue living in China. There is the Jino. Parts of Sumatra has a matrilineal tradition.
No webpage found at provided URL: http://website.lineone.net/~suryo/suryowed.html Try this one too.
No webpage found at provided URL: http://gsh.taiwanschoolnet.org/1877/en600.htm the kuna... the chamorro... ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Speel-yi Inactive Member |
Matrilineal is defining descent through the mothers line. Matrilocal is living at the locale of the brides family. Matriarchal is being ruled by women. We have yet to find a truly Matriarchal society. (You left out the Jomon/Ainu culture FWIW.) You can cite all the New Age web sites you care to, it won't change the truth of the matter.
Any culture that would have a matriarchal structure would be outcompeted by a patriarchal one in an evolutionary context. Think it through and you can see that the time spent ruling for one set of women would take time away from rearing children. Children are (heh) labor intensive and it takes a great deal of effort to bring them to adulthood. Evolution does not care about anyones sensitivities, it cares only about reproductive success. For civilization, you left out some of your definitions, I'll provide the complete ones for you. 1) An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.2) The type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch: Mayan civilization; the civilization of ancient Rome. 3) The act or process of civilizing or reaching a civilized state. 4) Cultural or intellectual refinement; good taste. 5) Modern society with its conveniences: returned to civilization after camping in the mountains. That's the rest of the American Heritage definitions, take your pick. I like #1, #3, and #5 since they work for me. Then there is the root word "civic" from the same dictionary... civic adj.Of, relating to, or belonging to a city, a citizen, or citizenship; municipal or civil. Latin cvicus, from cvis, citizen. See kei-1 in Indo-European Roots. Looks like it pertains to cities to me. I've read Levitucus too, you left out one verse after the one of the ones you quoted, Leviticus 20:10If there is a man who commits adultery with another man's wife, one who commits adultery with his friend's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Wow, looks like men get the same bad treatment for having a little fun. You seem to fail to grasp the context of the times when discussing a code several thousand years old. Doesn't it puzzle you a bit that we are discussing the code of a small group of people from that time and not the codes from Egypt, Assyria, The Hittites, The Babylonians or even the Sea People all of whom were technologically superior in every way. The world was a brutal place at the time and in most places might made right, there was nothing to stop one person from killing another at the slightest provocation. I think Leviticus has some great things in it like prohibitions against eating bunny rabbits, camels, dogs and pigs. Check out the 11th chapter sometime.
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Raha Inactive Member |
Then you should also know that there is no known society that is not patriarchal. All are ruled by men. Well, there is really no evidence for purely matriarchal society - at least as far as I know. But the system Haudenosaunee (Iroquez league) was really an interesting one - They were matrilinear, but not only that. They had male chiefs, but they were elected by group of elder women. Women were also leaders of clans and they made most decisions. Chiefs were actually in charge only in matters of war. ------------------Life has no meaning but itself.
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Speel-yi Inactive Member |
The women had more or less a veto power and left the men to do most of the decision making. They only stepped in to remove a particularly bad chief. Men strove to not be that bad, it was embarrassing for them.
There is another example here: http://womencrossing.org/goheen.html I like the metaphor they use. [This message has been edited by Speel-yi, 09-24-2003]
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5846 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
admins... oh great admins I summone thee... set this thread backe on tracke.
Would not the topics of what a culture or civilization is, or what religions may be defined as polytheistic, be more rightly placed according to their own kinds in separate threads that make up thy holy garments. Please, save this thread by casting other questions asunder. ------------------holmes |
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Brian Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi Raha,
Sorry for the delay in responding but I have been busy here, I just seem to be finding it difficult to get on top of all the new courses this year, but I am almost there now, and I was also waiting for a book that I needed answer your post to be returned to the library. I read through your story again and I can see no problem with it in a fictional context, the problems would start if it was ever to be suggested that it was historically plausible. I think your story is one that is not that difficult to construct, it was fairly obvious where it was going very early on in the text, but it was still very interesting all the same. As you know, we take a different approach to the topic, you from a novelist approach and I come from the archaeological/theological approach. The crux of your theory is that the monotheism that arose in Canaan was somehow related to that of the monotheism exhibited by the Pharaoh Akhenaten, so therefore there must have been a point of contact that caused the transmission of the concept of monotheism from Egypt to Canaan. I think it is fair to say that the suggestion is that the Israelites who were enslaved in Egypt were the ones who took monotheism from Egypt to Canaan after being ejected by the Egyptians. I looked through a few journals and books and it appears that the Akhenaten-Moses connection is a bit of a non-starter, and the similarities between Ahkenaten’s religion and the religion of Moses is not that similar upon closer inspection. On a superficial level there does appear to be certain similarities and quite a few writers have made a connection between the pair, however these writers were not specialists, one of the people who suggested a connection was none other than Sigmund Freud (Sigmund Freud, Moses and monotheism; translated from the German by Katherine Jones. London : Hogarth Press, 1932).Some authors who were more interested in selling books that actual finding accurate history made Akhenaten a teacher of Moses and a forerunner of Christ, however, these writers display a lack of familiarity with the primary sources (Donald B. Redford, Akhenaten : the heretic king. Princeton, N.J. : Princeton University Press, 1984, p 226). These writers declare that it is self-evident that the monotheism preached at Mount Sinai is to be traced back eventually to the teachings of Akhenaten, the heretic king. Even those who reject direct contact nonetheless allow themselves to compare the two systems and to marvel at the points of similarity (Donald B. Redford. Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in ancient times. Princeton, N.J. ; Oxford : Princeton University Press, 1992, p 377) If the researcher had dug a little deeper into the primary sources he would have discovered some severe difficulties that would have curbed his enthusiasm. For example, he would have learned that the Exodus is most unlikely to have occurred when and under the conditions and involving the people the Hebrew Bible says it did. In fact probably no part of the Israelites was even in Egypt during the New Kingdom in a capacity that later gave rise to the Sojourn and Bondage narratives. I have quoted James Weinstein before on this site but I feel it is necessary to do so again. Weinstein is a reputable archaeologist who is very familiar with the debate surrounding Ancient Israel’s origins, and he categorically states that ‘'were it not for the Bible, anyone looking at the Palestinian archaeological data today would conclude that whatever the origin of the Israelites, it was not Egypt.' Archaeological Reality p.98, in Exodus the Egyptian Evidence. Eisenbrauns, Indiana 1997). With the impossibility of Moses and Akhenaten ever having met, then that should really be an end to the investigation, but historical facts never seem to deter some people, but further comparisons serve to undermine the connection between Akhenaten and Moses. One thing that always seems to be part of research of this kind is there is a tendency to assume a greater significance for an alleged point of contact than is actually the case. ‘It is easy to point to aspects of activity, universality, divine sonship, justice, and messianism in both Israelite and Amarna belief, but these are so widespread in all ancient religions (including the normative religion of Egypt) that to posit specific contact is quite misleading’ (Redford 1992, p 378) Anyone that sees a similarity between what Akhenaten was promoting and ‘Mosaic Monotheism’ really needs to compare the two a bit more closely. The Amarna religion seems clear, in terms of textual sources, chronological limits, and content. Mosaic monotheism, is very sketchy, it hadn’t really crystallised into monotheism during the time Moses was said to have lived. Most scholars would deny that, in the thirteenth century BCE, the generally accepted date for Moses, the Hebrew were nowhere near the exalted plane of monotheism, the prophetic movement of the Iron Age is really the point when Hebrew religion resembled anything that could with any certainty be called monotheism. What appears to be compared with Akhenaton’s religion is not the religion followed by the Hebrews in the 13th century BCE, rather it is the religion that only emerged in the advanced concepts of the Deutero-Isaiah material of the sixth and fifth centuries, a religion removed by almost a thousand years from Akhenaten. Also, was what Akhentaten and Moses taught actually a religion? What Moses preached was love for a creator God who interacted with his people in history, Moses religion included a code of conduct, rituals, and the worship of God by the whole community and Hebrew religion, at least in the formative stage in which we see it in the later Iron Age, is creedal (G. Von Rad, The problem of the Hexateuch, and other essays / translated from the German by Rev. E.W. Trueman Dicken, introduction by Norman W. Porteous. New York, Oliver & Boyd, 1966. pp 1-33) involving a confession of faith in Yahweh. This doesn’t really resemble Akhenaten’s faith at all, what Akhenaten endorsed in no way involves a creed; it is more a royal statement regarding the king's relationship with his father the Sun Disk, it was not really a religion of the people. ‘As such it thrusts a teaching role upon the monarch in which he, as the sole individual privy to god's will, is obliged to make plain to the people the nature of god and the king's place in creation. There is nothing comparable in early Hebrew religion with the "teaching" of Akhenaten no one fills an essential didactic role, and, when later the prophets emerge, they prove to be outside the system (Redford 1984, p 53). Hebrew religion is to all intents and purposes indigenous to a particular ethnic group, and underwent a natural evolution over centuries of prehistory. But Akhenaten's program is a self-conscious modification of an existing system, it was sudden and in opposition to the beliefs of a whole range of high officials. If we now examine the natures of the gods of Akhenaten's program and the early Hebrew religion, there is a remarkable difference between the two. Akhenaten's god is celestial and solar, identified as "light" and the "sun disk"; he creates brightness and therefore his own essence. By contrast the Hebrew god Yahweh displays atmospheric and earthly traits, being associated with the wind, earthquake, fire, and thunder. Light by no means summarises Yahweh, it may be associated with him as a symbol of purity and truth and another difference is that his followers accepted him is a new deity. Yet another difference is that the Sun Disk inspires very little response in the worshiper but Yahweh is a wrathful, vengeful god prone to violent outbreaks of temper, he has childish tantrums, but also capable of compassion and forgiveness, which is entirely in line with all the other Canaanite gods. The Sun Disk is a timeless royal deity without any record of past deeds, but Yahweh is a hero-god whose victories have to praised and preached forever. The Sun Disk never demanded any particular code of ethical behaviour different from what had dominated Egyptian society from time immemorial. By contrast, Yahweh was very much a god of his people and contained from the outset all the ingredients of a personal deity. A rigid code of ethics is strongly stressed, and becomes an integral part of Hebrew religion (Redford 1994, p380) Also, there existed between him and Israel a bond unknown between an Egyptian god and his people, and that was the covenant. Yahweh had chosen Israel and entered into a contractual agreement with it. Upon closer inspection, the gulf between Akhenaten’s faith and Mosaic monotheism really is quite large. Now we arrive at what is an insurmountable problem, and that is the question of plurality of deity, there is no doubt that Akhenaten was a monotheist but in the earliest stages in the development of the Hebrew religion, Yahweh is seen as just one god amongst the many in the Canaanite pantheon. Yahweh was a stereotypical Canaanite hero-creator god. His creation of man from clay and woman from a rib is as inane as most foreign contemporary accounts, and the Flood story, even though it has been heavily edited, remains within the range of a well-known type of myth. In contrast, the Sun Disk has no mythological past, there is no creation story or accounts of anything else for that matter, the Sun Disk was never a fully developed system of belief in the same sense as Yahwism was. There are other differences, Yahwism was strongly patriarchal, favouring the males and belittling the females, but for generations the Egyptian court had been strongly influenced if not dominated by royal females, and its customs, life-style, and art are influenced by a sort of feminine energy (Redford, 1992 p 382) I suppose we could say that Akhenaten was the first monotheist, but he had no influence on the religion that emerged in Canaan that finally became monotheism. There may be certain similarities on a basic level, but it appears that these similarities have been over exaggerated. There is no way to link the Israelites who emerged from within Canaan in the late bronze/early Iron Age with Egypt at all, far less a link it with an individual pharaoh. So, although your story is enjoyable and perhaps a little predictable, it does belong in a fictional setting, however I would say that if you wanted to have a more realistic feel to it, then you have to forget the implicit suggestion that Israel took monotheism from Egypt to Canaan. Brian.
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Thanks for the definitions, but I went through that with real live anthropology professors.
quote: I smell a no true Scotsman fallacy. If you are going to define patriarchal as an absolute dictatorial rule by males and matriarchal as the same by females-- something like the mythical society of amazon women-- then you aren't going to find either. Human culture is a hell of a lot more complicated than that. Power runs a lot deeper than who elects chiefs, or who overtly make the laws. What you must consider is which group carries the balance of power. It is a sliding scale. Absolutes don't exist at either end. Matrilineal systems tend to give women power. Matrilocal systems tend to give them more power still. The details can't be settled except on an culture by culture basis.
quote: Do you think that was intended as a complete list?
quote: I do fear that evidence will have little effect on you.
quote: Outcompeted as the bonobo, a matriarchal chimp society, are outcompeted? They seem to be doing ok.
quote: Time spent ruling? You seem to think that all cultures are heavily bureaucratic and that ruling take a huge amount of time and effort. Except in very complicated cultures, this is not the case. You really need to read some ethnographs. The majority of hunter/gatherer peoples work three or four hours a day and the rest of the time do not much at all. Tradition does most of the ruling. The leaders are for special occasions.
quote: Not as much effort as you think. For simple cultures, children usually contribute as soon as they can walk. Mom goes to the field and picks berries. The kids watch mom and pick their own berries when they get hungry.
quote: Obviously, but that doesn't make your claim correct. It occurs to me that this discussion of matriarchal society is diversionary, at best. I did not contrast patriarchy with matriarchy, but with egalitarian society. Neither patriarchy nor matriarchy fit the bill.
quote: Actually, I picked the ones that contradict your idea of the 'correct' usage. That is the point. You choose one of several meanings and insisted that your meaning was correct and rei's, I believe, was wrong. That is not the case. Maybe you don't understand how dictionaries work? A dictionary does not give you THE meaning. It gives you numerous meanings. These meanings do not have to be related or even non-contradictory. You do not average the meanings to get the 'one true meaning.' And you do not get to pick your favorite and bitch if someone else uses the word differently, so long as it is valid usage. I chose definitions to indicate valid usage other than your own.
quote: 1) pertains to writing and social complexity, not cities. The two are not inextricably linked. This is closest to the usage you'll find in anthropology, and in that usage, cities would have begun a couple of layers of complexity back, with the founding of sedentary agricultural villages and the developement of tribal societies. Civilization is typically marked by monolithic public works, not cities-- a monolithic work being something like a pyramid, which is essentially useless but indicates a highly complex culture and economy. 3) nothing what-so-ever to do with cities and everything to do with ethnocentric arrogance. 5) pertains to subjective perception of comfort, not cities.
quote: Lol... isn't that the point? You chided rei for her choice.
quote: Civic isn't the root. Civis is the root, and you can't look it up in an English dictionary as it is a Latin word. Civic, also, is derived from civis.
quote: 'Civis' looks like city? Civis means citizen-- that would be a person not a big town. 'Urbs' is city.
quote: Yes, they do... when they trespass against another man. That is, when they steal apples from another man's orchard, milk from another man's cow. This isn't about equality, but theft.
quote: You forgot your question mark. No, this doesn't puzzle me. We are discussing it because you suggested that it is unique. It isn't. Those other legal codes you mentioned are all quite similar. In a sense, we are discussing all of them.
quote: BS. Every culture has had laws forbidding killing of one's own-- this being variously described. The Isrealites were no different. Killing each other was forbidden. Killing the heathen... well, that was righteous.
quote: I hope you were joking. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Speel-yi Inactive Member |
Nope, not kidding. You never answered why you are still discussing something like Leviticus and not a code from the Egyptian civilization. I'll answer it for you, because it's still relevant. People still use Mosaic Law today and they still make babies, it's here because it works regardless of what you personally may dislike about the practitioners of that code. Wonder of wonders, it has survived all this time and the hilarious thing is that guys like you can't put it away. (Some guy tried 50 years ago, but he had a handy cyanide pill for hisself.)
Then we have matriarchal societies, sorry you lose again because we are not talking about bonobos, hyenas, honeybees or ants. We are talking about humans in this thread last I checked. If you think baby humans are easy to rear, it only shows that you have total lack of experience with them. But from a theoretical standpoint, you simply have to get more than berries to feed them. They need essential fatty acids, essential amino acids and a whole lot of training in order to learn how to get them. You simply don't get them by eating berries(I do know about Hadza kids catching and eating their own hyraxes and Bofi kids catching and eating their own jungle rats.) The largish human brain takes 16 times as much energy to maintain as normal tissue does. It takes even more nutrients to grow one since much of the tissue is made from nutrients we are unable to synthesize. (If you have stayed with me this long, check out "The Expensive Tissue Hypothesis" by Aiello and Wheeler from Current Anthropology 36.2 (1995): 199-221.) As for "forager civilization" sorry not happening. It's what we would call an oxymoron...a meaningless statement. Foragers really had no need for anything pertaining monuments, writing, fine cuisine and yet somehow they managed to live for a million years without such niceties as VCRs or the internet. Holmes, if you are still there, I'll be to the point and say I personally don't give memes much credence, I find that humans can discover things for themselves given the right conditions. Try to consider that Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and Taoism are fairly late comers to the game of belief systems. We simply don't know for a fact that early man was not a monotheist.
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Wow! So Leviticus is great because you can't eat bunny rabbits? Gee... very profound.
quote: Yes, I did. No need to answer for me, even if you were capable. Do you read my posts? It is beginning to look as if you don't.
quote: No one follows the Mosaic code, today. No one. The only thing that survives is a bare minimum of regulations which pretty much every culture shares. You are fooling yourself. Now, how is this relevant? The issue began with the claim that the Mosaic code was unique. What you have posted is utterly irrelevant to that issue.
quote: Gee... eventually you will address an issue, I assume? Please address the contrast between egalitarian and patriarchal. This was the original issue.
quote: Wrong. What you are missing is that western culture makes raising kids a hell of lot more difficult than it would be in more simple societies. Read some ethnographs.
quote: Lol... I did not literally mean eating berries and only berries. It was an example, not a complete list. It does not take a hell of a lot of training to learn to eat bugs. There is a difference between hunter/gatherers and western civilization.
quote: This relates to what? And how? Still not getting the concept of a word having two different meanings? In common English the phrase is not an oxymoron, no matter how badly you want it to be. An anthropologist might object and ask that the word be used more specifically. This does not make the anthropologist correct. All of the sciences have jargon. Words means specific things within the sciences that they do not mean outside the sciences. Bitching only makes you appear pompous. Of course, you may as well huff and puff, as you have nothing substantial to offer.
quote: And? No one has said a word about anyone needing or wanting monuments. I gave you a line commonly used in anthropology to mark the advent of civilization. It has nothing to do with desire. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Speel-yi Inactive Member |
quote: Marvin Harris covered at least one of the reasons why it would be advantageaous to not eat pork. The people I speak for (a group of collectors) also have some nice food taboos. (Very interesting stuff if you ever bother to get out in the field and find out.) One of their food taboos is that they don't eat shellfish. You seem to see moral codes as restrictive to individual freedom and rights. But that does not matter in an evolutionary sense. I believe you are projecting your own values on a culture in the past.
quote: I read them, I find them agressive towards me because I have different point of view than you.
quote: Jewish people still observe many of the customs set forth all that long time ago. Observing The Sabbath is something Orthodox Jews do and it is not a type of thing everyone does everywhere. Asian cultures have no weekend unless they adopt it from Western Culture. Enjoy your weekend and you can thank a Jew for it sometime.
quote: It is self-evident that as long as you continue to post anything at all on the subject of Mosaic Law (at least from your perspective), it is still relevant.
quote: The original issue was not between egalitarian and patriarchal. Being patriarchal does not preclude egalitarianism though. It is a relative term and more to the point relates to the absence of classes or castes.
quote: I've read many ethnographs. You make the common mistake in believing that forager culture is simple, it is not. Foragers do many things that require great effort and skill. Their languages are complex and they posess great knowledge of their habitat. If rearing large brained primates were easy, we would have seen many of them evolve over time. It would also mean that foragers would have large families with many offspring. They need much more than berries to live on. Beyond reading about cultures, I actually do fieldwork and one of my objectives is to improve diets and cultural identity along with it. Few foragers make the transition to civilized living.
quote: Actually, the Aka have to carefully prepare their bugs since the catepillars they like to eat are full of tannins. You can eat them fresh, bit if you eat too many you run the risk of gastric distress. But that's only an example of the complexity of "simple" cultures. Again, if it were an easy evolutionary strategy, you would see large brained primates evolve all the time. Humans are pretty unique in nature it seems. I believe that you are demeaning foragers by stating that it is easy to eat bugs. You try to live without modern conveniences sometime, I doubt you can do it. Foragers by and large are much smarter than civilized peoples, they can't afford to be otherwise.
quote: It is not a common English phrase either, the very first time I have ever seen it is when it was posted here. Try a search engine with it sometime and see how often the two categories are seen as mutually exclusive. My friends know I'm pompous, we joke about it all the time.
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AdminBrian Inactive Member |
We do know what this topic is about?
The posts have been drifting lately but some of them were loosely connected to monotheism, hence they may have proved that Akhenaten wasn't the founder. But we seem to be drifting too far off topic, let us try and focus on Akhenaten and monthiesm. AdminBrian.
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5846 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
Nice post, but there are some lingering issues I did not see addressed.
It seems quite clear that it was not a direct connection from Akhenaton to the Canaanites, yet my own "theory" does not involve such a direct connection. Would it not be possible that Akhenaton's religion was crushed so harshly, and its adherents made slaves, that the religion adapted to survive the persecution. In this case learning to eschew icons and using a specific term for their God (or head God). They may have also gone back into a "polytheistic" state to avoid detection, believing he was one of many (and perhaps the most important). Coming out of Egypt it may not have been fully formed, which is quite clear by the passages related to Moses. It looked very much like (once outside of Egypt) the "one god" suddenly began to gain prominence among the others. It would only take time to shift from that to a singular God. It is not surprising that throughout this process other hero-creator myths would be incorporated from other pantheons. The Xtian church continued to do this even after establishment. So while I see that Akhenaton's religion was not the same as that of Moses, or of that of the later Jews and Xtians, it seems reasonable that those later religious systems may have begun with Akhenaton's religious adherents. And actually I do see some connection in that Moses had to go talk to God to then tell the people how things were going to be. Then Jesus. Even the Catholic church had the Pope. There seems to be a thread of one guy having a direct connection to God and heavenly dictates and we do what he says. Is this plausible as an evolution of akhenaton's religion? ------------------holmes
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