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Author Topic:   A question that was first presented by Socrates.
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 1 of 314 (144004)
09-23-2004 2:26 AM


As some of you may already know, I love philosophy. Although I am a physics student, I've been taking as many philosophy classes as much as I can. Especially philosophy of ethics, every student is always asked the following question: Is a thing good because god commands it or does god commands it because it is good?
This question was first asked by Socrates to someone known as Euthephro. You can find out the details of how Socrates came up with this question by reading the dialogue of Euthephro.
There are many people here, both evolutionists and creationists, who believe in god. For those of you that believe in god, what are your answers to this question?
Also, I suspect that an admin will ask me to post my answer first before approving this topic. I do not have an answer to this because I do not believe in god.
This message has been edited by Darth Mal, 09-23-2004 01:28 AM
This message has been edited by Darth Mal, 09-23-2004 01:28 AM

The Laminator
B ULLS HIT
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 314 (144007)
09-23-2004 2:59 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 3 of 314 (144027)
09-23-2004 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by coffee_addict
09-23-2004 2:26 AM


Well my first response would be to ask which God are you talking about? There are many mythologies with many deities. Some set rules for ultimate obeyance and others do not.
Socrates definitely did NOT share the monotheistic Judeo-Xian-Islamo God, so I find it odd that he would say "God" anything. Indeed many of the Gods held at that time made laws and told individuals what to do, but without connotations of "good" and "evil" as we know them today.
If you are talking about the Xian God then it is clearly what God says is good, and not vice versa... at least with a literal reading of the Bible.
God made everyone nude and was not sharing that knowledge. The fruit of the tree of knowledge, which was said to give Adam and Eve knowledge like Gods (of good and evil), let them know their nudity (which God allowed) was bad.
If you follow him, what he says is good.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by coffee_addict, posted 09-23-2004 2:26 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
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agnostic
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 314 (144064)
09-23-2004 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by coffee_addict
09-23-2004 2:26 AM


an answer with a question
Darth Mal (Formerly Lam?)
Before I found this site I strongly beleived there was no God. Now, I realise it's scientifically impossible to prove God doesn't exist so I am sitting of the fence. I hope that makes me qualified to answer...
A "thing" is good if it benefits someone without harming another - God's command is irrelevant.
Are you posing the question "If God asked me to kill, does that mean it's OK?" (Although slightly off topic, that's how religious fanatics justify evil deeds.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by coffee_addict, posted 09-23-2004 2:26 AM coffee_addict has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 5 of 314 (144070)
09-23-2004 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Silent H
09-23-2004 5:19 AM


Originally, Socrates asked "Is a thing good because the gods command it or does the gods command it because it is good?"
Modern philosophers just changed "gods" to "god" to apply that to the modern Judeo-christian god.
Sorry, I assumed everybody already knew this.

The Laminator
B ULLS HIT
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 6 of 314 (144097)
09-23-2004 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by coffee_addict
09-23-2004 10:58 AM


Sorry, I assumed everybody already knew this.
My reply was supposed to be deeper than that. In addition to God vs Gods, comes an acknowledgement that some Gods do not make such commands anyway. It is also true (though I'd have to see that specific text you are speaking of) good and evil back then were sort of different than they are thought of today.
I guess I am being real picky, but being a philosopher I kind of get picky on things like that.
In any case, I addressed the question you were getting at. It seems to me Genesis pretty well begins by showing good is what God says, not what he does.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by coffee_addict, posted 09-23-2004 10:58 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 7 of 314 (144106)
09-23-2004 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Silent H
09-23-2004 12:19 PM


If that is your answer, what do you think prevents god from changing its mind... or is it entirely possible that it will change its mind and today's evil could be tomorrow's good?

The Laminator
B ULLS HIT
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 10 by Loudmouth, posted 09-23-2004 3:34 PM coffee_addict has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 8 of 314 (144114)
09-23-2004 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by coffee_addict
09-23-2004 12:52 PM


is it entirely possible that it will change its mind and today's evil could be tomorrow's good?
I have no idea if it is possible or not, but I do think the theoretical implications are exactly what you suggest.
That's why I DON'T believe people actually get their morality from their Gods. If they did then in reality they have no morality at all. It is simple obedience. Or I suppose "do what god says" is the whole of that morality.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by coffee_addict, posted 09-23-2004 12:52 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by coffee_addict, posted 09-23-2004 2:45 PM Silent H has replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 9 of 314 (144118)
09-23-2004 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Silent H
09-23-2004 2:29 PM


Well, I was hoping for some christian answers from some of the fundies here. As I understand it, you're not one of them... or am I wrong?

The Laminator
B ULLS HIT
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Silent H, posted 09-23-2004 2:29 PM Silent H has replied

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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 314 (144137)
09-23-2004 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by coffee_addict
09-23-2004 12:52 PM


quote:
If that is your answer, what do you think prevents god from changing its mind... or is it entirely possible that it will change its mind and today's evil could be tomorrow's good?
It is possible that God could change his mind, but that doesn't entirely get to the conclusions that Socrates was trying to reach. The question is really where do morals come from. Do they rest entirely with the Godhead, or does the Godhead relay these morals to humans from another source? And the ultimate question, if these morals are separate from God what prevents man from distinguishing these morals as well without God's help?
The story of Adam and Eve in the Garden seems to address this problem. After eating of the Tree of Knowledge, God says something to the effect "Now they know what We know". It seems to indicate that Man knows of morality from the same source that God derived his knowledge of morality. Theologically, this doesn't prevent God being necessary to guide man through morality, but it doesn't prevent man from relying on God for knowledge of right and wrong.
So it would seem to me that Man does know right from wrong, according to christian theology, but needs God for guidance. It is not Good or Bad because God says so, but rather we are incapable of being perfectly Good without help.
This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 09-23-2004 02:35 PM

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 11 of 314 (144165)
09-23-2004 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Loudmouth
09-23-2004 3:34 PM


In other words, what you are saying is that "the good" is entirely seperate from god. Am I right?

The Laminator
B ULLS HIT
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Loudmouth, posted 09-23-2004 3:34 PM Loudmouth has replied

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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 314 (144171)
09-23-2004 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by coffee_addict
09-23-2004 4:45 PM


quote:
In other words, what you are saying is that "the good" is entirely seperate from god. Am I right?
Heheh, I guess my posts can get a little wordy at times. Yeah, the good is separate from God according to christian theology, at least from my readings.
I am a little sketchy on the details, but there was an early christian movement called gnosticism. Their beliefs were tied into this idea to the point of only looking at scripture as mere guidlines. They believed that knowledge was directly accessible, a more drastic theology than what most modern christians accept. You can still find a few gnostics still practicing, but they are few and far between, mostly in Greece if I remember correctly. Many of Pauls writings seemed to focus on discrediting this early movement, saying that only through God can one have complete knowledge of God and morality. It has been 12 years since I took a New Testament class, so I may have a few details wrong.

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 Message 11 by coffee_addict, posted 09-23-2004 4:45 PM coffee_addict has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 13 of 314 (144176)
09-23-2004 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by coffee_addict
09-23-2004 2:45 PM


As I understand it, you're not one of them... or am I wrong?
Not wrong... though I've had a bit of experience in that territory.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by coffee_addict, posted 09-23-2004 2:45 PM coffee_addict has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 14 of 314 (144179)
09-23-2004 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Loudmouth
09-23-2004 3:34 PM


The story of Adam and Eve in the Garden seems to address this problem. After eating of the Tree of Knowledge, God says something to the effect "Now they know what We know".
Actually it creates a problem. If it is true that when man gains access to the true good, he comes to an OPPOSITE conclusion than what God had been telling them (with regard to how they should live), then how can God be the transmitter of good?
God even becomes angry with them for knowing they should live opposite from what he created.
This appears to indicate that God expects them to live as HE says, and accept what good he tells them, even if that is not true right/wrong.
I just realized this raises another question.
If man gained knowledge of right and wrong from eating the fruit, did he lose it? If so, how since if he ate from the tree of knowledge he'd have been alive forever (even if God did not want it). If not, why has man needed guidance as to what is right or wrong? Shouldn't he "know it"?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 314 (144232)
09-23-2004 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Silent H
09-23-2004 5:39 PM


quote:
Actually it creates a problem. If it is true that when man gains access to the true good, he comes to an OPPOSITE conclusion than what God had been telling them (with regard to how they should live), then how can God be the transmitter of good?
From Genesis 3:5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
And the serpent seems to be correct:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
It would seem to me that man does know good from evil. However, according to theology, man lacks the knowledge to appropriately apply these concepts. Also, man still has to be guided in his relationship with God, which would seem to be separate from knowing good and evil. It is a fine line, I will grant you that, between knowing good and evil and BEING good.
Also, it is the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not the tree of all knowledge. Therefore, man would not carry away the knowledge to make themselves immortal flesh. And again, this is my understanding of christian theology, not necessarily my opinion on the reality of morals. I myself believe that basic morality, those ethics that every culture shares, are ingrained into each person. An instinctual moral code, so to speak. However, there are morals that not every culture shares and those seem to be memetic, an ethos passed down from generation to generation.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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