A question that was first presented by Socrates.

There was a man who sown destruction and reaped disaster.There was a man who didn't and didn't.A = B.No B = No A.A causes B.Your doings (A) cause your fruit (B)

Phatboy, the rat's been missing my point, and so are you. If god did not create evil, then how can we choose evil? Your example with the parent thing is a false analogy. Parents are not omnipotent or omnicient. They do not create their kids' will. According to the rat and you, god created everything, including our will.Here is a better analogy, I think. I have a nickel and a quarter. The nickel represents a good choice and the quarter represents an evil choice. However, if I only give you the nickel, how the hell can you have the quarter?The point is not which choice we chose. The point is where did evil come from? You and the rat keep insisting that god created everything, but if he created everything and everything that he created must be good, where did evil come from?

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He's not dead. He's electroencephalographically challenged.

Or perhaps a bird just flew through the glass ceiling of concrete reality..on its way to the realm of eternal hope.
God is good. God is hope.
We all hope we are good, but what is the anchor of our hope?
For some, eternal belief and optimism in the human spirit and the potential thereof.
For others, hope in our Creator who is the source of all that is good. 1) IF according to traditional lore, God created Lucifer who chose to rebel.
2)This act of rebellion became Satan and the definition of the source of evil
3) Evil=choice, since without a choice, evil would never have been chosen
Thus...substitute the word evil with the word choice.
So God created [choice] strictly for [choice]-doers, whom He created mainly so that later He could create [choice] to cast upon them. He is good because the [choice] He creates is only to punish the[choice]doers for the [choice] they do to others, which is necessary so that He can later punish them for it. Makes no sense, does it? God allowed choice, knowing that there would soon be choosers who would soon complain that the choices were forced upon them. He IS good because the alternative that He allowed is only to discipline the choosers who did not choose Him. They complain that He makes them choose Him. He only shows it as it is: Life or Death. Therefore....choose life.4)Humans took on the nature.
5) This choice was what was given to us initially

yin-yang

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Is evil a thing?

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If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?

Yes, it is.

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He's not dead. He's electroencephalographically challenged.

Lam-here is the edited version: Lets say that God indirectly allowed evil to exist. Now what? You don't even believe in God butIF you did, you may point a finger at Him and accuse Him of being the source of any problems that humanity attributes to evil. If God is the source of [the will to choose] which manifested into a negative spirit once chosen, how does it help to stay apart from God and hold on to our free will?We are asked to be in a Card game where the dealer has all of the cards marked so as to know any hand we play. This dealer not only has marked the cards,(or knows that the cards were "marked" by a rebel whom the dealer created) this dealer in fact knows every possible path that you choose to take to get out of the casino. You may run to a mountain top and the dealer is with you. You may run to the bottem of a lake and the dealer is with you. When you die, the dealer awaits...He wants a simple answer: Are you in or are you out? The issue in this scenario is this: Do you trust the dealer?
He is not trying to win, for He has already won. He only wants you to be in His game.Some possible questions for this parable:
1) Whats in it for me if I am in His game?
2) What happens to me if I choose to be out of the game in an alternate reality that this same dealer supposedly created or allowed to be?This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-25-2004 04:44 PM

Phatboy What neutral freewill Lucifer would that be? Do you refer to satan?The bible seperates the two in to seperate entities.Regardless the creation of even the vessel to carry evil if you will is nonetheless the responsibilty of god.That is unless god is a liberal in the minority government here in Canada in which case he is obviously above petty concerns such as responsibilty.You also query as to what are you and I gonna do about it?
As with all despots refuse to participate in the game, and rebel against the unnecessary injustice imposed by those who have not grown mature enough to treat their {in this case supposedly} creation with the respect due it.You do not support such ludicrous ineptitude from a child much less a god.Tell that god to grow the fuck up and deal with it already.This is of course moot and pointless in a world where such things are only whispers of dusty ancient manuscripts whose words are out of joint with the existing reality of the world.It is telling that a god who needs humans to obey his command when he has given them the power to do otherwise is not very bright nor very stable.Such a god is not also capable of creating the universe.

Lam: I'm not so sure. Is darkness a thing, or just the absence of light?

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If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?

Absence of good does not mean evil. Am I evil if I don't do something to prevent Bush from implimenting his bigoted social policy? Are you evil if you don't join the red cross right now and go over to Africa to help save the starving children there?Again, you are using false analogy.

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He's not dead. He's electroencephalographically challenged.

Please edit your post to make it more readable. I've decided some time ago to ignore any post that looks like a big blob of words.

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He's not dead. He's electroencephalographically challenged.

Shadows and dust eh Sidelined - shadows and dust. God gives commands that we might please him - he has given us power yes, Christ says; "You would have no power unless it was given you from above"/--> And yet Christ refused power of world.Now God's will is that we obey his commandments, but I suppose that we have the power to do otherwise - or is that power an illusion? Will that illusion land is in hot water? Do we know what is best - or does God?Thus it becomes God who grants us the chances - and we become the dust again, but his words have never passed - and the present reality of man and his device is but as the grass - and his glory as a flower that withers. Therefore your boast is this present age - in a time span you evolutionists even regard as the last minute before midnight. And so this present age - and it's illusion - is as boastful as a flash in the dark in an eternity of darkness.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-25-2004 04:15 PM

Who says you have to do those specific good things? Of course it is impossible to do every good thing that is doable.If you see a crime that you could easily prevent, but don't prevent it, I would call that evil, because you did not do what was good.Murder is evil because it is the absence of good relationships between people. People who don't do what is Good are evil, but evil is not a thing anymore than darkness is.(edited to correct mispelling)This message has been edited by General Nazort, 10-25-2004 04:31 PM

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If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?

I beg to differ. I see no moral obligation to not be a passifist in certain situation. Remember this active and passive killing thing we were talking about in the abortion thread? I think this is where the differences in our opinion get in the way.

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He's not dead. He's electroencephalographically challenged.The longest word in the English language is pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.

You seem to be doing the same thing - why is it that I am mistaken and you are not? Why did God make me in such a way to prevent me from becoming close to Him? Why does He make so many Hindus and Muslims and Buddhists, etc? Why didn't He make us all 'differently'? But in the Bible He goes back on his word, by commanding people to violate His commandments. What if you are wrong? You've said we can't understand God's will/capabilities/intentions - so perhaps you are going against God's will in your decisions, and will be punished in the afterlife.