A question that was first presented by Socrates.

If we are monothiests, then explain this verse:Psalm 82A psalm of Asaph.1 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the "gods":2 "How long will you [1] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'
7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.It says we are gods, with a small "g"

I don't see how you can seriously expect this analogy to stand.First, the order to genocide by God was based on the faith of those to be punished, not on specific acts of cruelty.Second, killing an entire community, including babies and animals, and razing it to the ground, is equivalent to putting all of the molested children to death along with the child molestor.Finally, since when can individuals be "too far gone to repent since they know nothing of Him"? I thought a primary Judeochristian precept was that everyone holds the potential to find salvation, regardless of their circumstances. Is this my own misconception?

Hi Rrhain,You wrote: Genesis 9:8-17 says:You persist on saying that his covenant with Noah is an admission to a mistake.How do you arrive at that conclusion?Also, his covenant only says that he will not bring another flood to destroy all flesh. He doesn't say he won't punish wickedness by other means.The New Testament is replete with warnings about the coming judgement on the wicked.

dpardo,True, the covenant might not be an outright admission depending on interpretation, but what about: "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth", followed by the decision to destroy mankind, is an admission of mistaken judgement in my reading.Do you interpret it otherwise?

deleted double postThis message has been edited by pink sasquatch, 10-27-2004 02:03 PM

Hi Pink Sasquatch! Do you mean "mistaken judgement" about deciding to create mankind in the first place?

With all due respect, I'd wish you'd answer a single question in this thread - all of my questions are met with other questions, not answers, and it is not conducive to productive discussion, not to mention it is frustrating.You do realize you can answer and qualify or expound on that answer?Regarding Genesis 6:There are multiple ways that God could see Himself as having made a mistake that led to His regret for the how mankind turned out.It doesn't matter how He is mistaken for the purposes of this discussion, just like it doesn't matter if I'm talking about a specific event when I ask you if you think genocide or infanticide are ever morally justifiable.So, separate of how He was mistaken, I'll ask again:Do you interpret Genesis 6:7 as a statement of mistaken judgement on God's part?

I apologize, sir.It was not my intent to frustrate you.I did not want to assume something about your questions and so, rather than post a response to something that I wasn't clear about, I asked for further clarification.My answer to your last question is: "No".According to the bible, God created man (Genesis 1:26) on the 6th day and it was good: Genesis 1:31.However, the state of mankind just before the flood, except Noah and his family, was this: Genesis 6:5-6and this: Genesis 6:11-13So, although God had originally created man and it was good, man had corrupted his way upon the earth.God was very disappointed and regretted making man because of the decisions that men had made to live contrary to God's way. Much like he is disappointed that you, Pink Sasquatch, have chosen to live as you do.

Thanks for your apology, I didn't think it was necessarily your intent. Did you have specific choices I've made in mind?I understand your interpretation on what I see as God's admission of mistake, obviously mine is different. (Please let me know if I incorrectly state any of your positions in the following...)For example, the fact that God says man is "good" in Genesis 1 does not take away from the possibility that He realized his mistake in Genesis 6. We've all done things that we thought were good at the time, but looking back on them realize were mistakes.You state: I put your full quote here, but it is really "God was very disappointed and regretted making man" that I want to point out, because to me the reason why God regretted something is less important than the simple the fact that He did regret doing something.What does it mean to regret doing something? I think it means that you wish you hadn't done it in the first place, in other words, you made a mistake by doing it.I think this brings us back to the point of this thread, which is more or less "Is God good or does God define good?"; and also impacts upon our other discussion on genocide.It seems defenders of God's morality (I would put you and Riverrat in this category) defend God's actions or commandents by the reason behind them.In other words, though you say God 'regretted' the creation of mankind, you see the regret as mankind's mistake rather than God's. I see it as God's mistake, since He is clearly regretting mankind's creation, which was an action of God and not man, (though admittedly He is also regretting mankind's choices). I think my stance is more logical.Similarly, it seems that God's acts of genocide, or His commandments to enact genocide and infanticide, may be seen as morally good in your eyes, as they seem to be in Phatboy's. My moral framework states that these things are acts of evil, no matter who is commanding or carrying out these deeds.So it looks like we have different views on the thread's initial question:You see God, and all of his actions, as "good".
I see God as defining "good", and disagree with Him on certain points.

That's why I think it would be productive to discuss these points.Do you have any specific event in mind when you bring up the issues of genocide or infanticide?

Do you think God made a mistake in creating you or allowing you to be born?

Why? God is more powerful than the devil, period. I don't see how you come to the conclusion that the devil is equal to God. I think you answered your own question. Wrong - I can defy God's will. So can everyone else with free will. And this follows how?

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If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?

Reaching time to close this one down. I'll wait a while so that the posters can make their last comments. If anyone believes there is more to discuss they can start a continuation thread.edited to change to Admin mode.This message has been edited by AdminJar, 10-27-2004 09:04 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This is a continuation of the thread by Socrates...I will answer this in the morning...I'm tired. Shut er down, Jar.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-28-2004 01:44 AM