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Author Topic:   Conversations with God
PaulK
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Posts: 17008
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 92 of 382 (884482)
02-21-2021 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
02-20-2021 3:57 PM


Re: Charismatic Chaos Revisited
Phat, whenever I look at the videos you link to, I find problems and you refuse to discuss them.

Why should I think that this one is any better? Your refusal to say anything makes me think it’s more rubbish, and that you know it’s rubbish.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 02-20-2021 3:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by dwise1, posted 02-22-2021 12:08 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17008
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 130 of 382 (884738)
03-06-2021 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
03-06-2021 9:52 AM


Re: Liberal Censorship. The Civil War Is Real
And it looks like the Civil War will be over White Supremacy.

Just looking at the material you quote about the author gives us cause for concern:


After successfully working in both the private sector and as a civil servant, Tom was fired without cause from his post of Town Manager in Jackman, Maine in a story that made national headlines in his assertions that Islam is not compatible with Western Civilization, that Whites deserve the same rights and consideration as all other people, and against Marxist subversion.

So he’s an Islamophobe, quite possibly a White Supremacist and likes accusing anyone even vaguely to the left of being a communist. Not exactly a trustworthy source.

Did you even think of searching to find out more?

CBS

... His website states that its purpose is "defending the people and culture of New England."

The website includes essays that make the case for a voluntary separation of races, and identifies Kawczynski as "steward for New Albion."


Racial segregation has been long a tool of White Supremacists, famously in the American South, and South Africa. Not to mention that the idea that it could be voluntary is absurd.

The Independent has a similar story.

Fox News agrees that his website supports “voluntary” racial segregation and attacks Islam.
Indeed it goes further than the other two by saying that the New Albion project:

...wants to preserve the white majority of northern New England

And the ADL says he wants that majority to be a staggering 95%. And any non-white who doesn’t agree will be “cast out”

For the remaining 5% he says, “While those who work may find their place, those who agitate against us must be cast out.” Obviously, no such “solution” could work under the framework of a democratic government, so Kawczynski leaves many details unexplained.

The ADL also quotes him as saying:

“You don't have to hate to see cold hard statistics and realize in a significant way that the average black in America has less intellectual aptitude. So, unless you perpetually give them free advantages, they would fall behind. I'm pretty sure they know this which is why they're perpetually angry.” Tom Kawczynski, GAB, November 2017

Apparently he’s now selling quack COVID cures. And still promoting his white ethnostate ideas.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 03-06-2021 9:52 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 03-06-2021 12:01 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17008
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 138 of 382 (884746)
03-06-2021 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
03-06-2021 12:01 PM


Re: Liberal Censorship. The Civil War Is Real
quote:
But I do respect Ben Shapiro and his intelligence.

I don’t. His interview with Andrew Neill ended up with him accusing Neill of being a “biased liberal”. (Neill is very Conservative, used to be chief editor of the Sunday Times for Murdoch).

quote:
My point is that Conservatism does not automatically equate to evil

I never thought it did. The problem is that plenty of Conservatives aren’t exactly good people. Shapiro isn’t, for one.

The radical right who’ve embraced Trump seem pretty evil, though. But they aren’t meaningfully Conservative.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 03-06-2021 12:01 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Phat, posted 03-06-2021 2:59 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17008
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 139 of 382 (884747)
03-06-2021 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Phat
03-06-2021 12:06 PM


Re: Liberal Censorship. The Civil War Is Real
I don’t think that one business refusing to carry a book amounts to suppressing it. Even one as big as Amazon. And what is your alternative?

quote:
My beef is with Bezos. Who in the hell does he think he is?

The guy who owns the business and can decide that they aren’t going to sell something?

Isn’t that something that Conservatives say he should be able to do?

Or does that principle suddenly go out of the window when he does something that “Conservatives” don’t like?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Phat, posted 03-06-2021 12:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17008
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 140 of 382 (884748)
03-06-2021 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by PaulK
03-06-2021 1:23 PM


Re: Liberal Censorship. The Civil War Is Real
On a related issue the owners of the Dr Seuss books have decided to take 6 of the less popular titles out of print, citing concerns about the content.

Conservatives naturally cite this as “Liberal Censorship” - although they often discuss different books that are staying in print (odd that). They are even buying large quantities of the other books, as if giving money to the company that made the decision is some sort of punishment.

It’s pretty clear that the Conservative reaction is not very rational or concerned with the truth,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by PaulK, posted 03-06-2021 1:23 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17008
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 145 of 382 (884753)
03-06-2021 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
03-06-2021 3:28 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
The main point you need to understand is that humans are fallible.
That is hardly an anti-Christian idea - in fact most Christians will affirm it.

Skepticism, in the sense used by Larry Hamelin and Sim recognises that. Human claims should not be confused with absolute truth. Even our own claims should not be - we absolutely should recognise our own fallibility and take steps to account for it. It is not that there is no absolute truth or even that humans can’t make absolutely true statements. It’s just that very few statements made by humans can be shown to be absolutely true.

The main conflict is not over whether there is an absolute truth. It is over human claims to have absolute truth. Should those claims be accepted as absolute truth in the absence of evidence ? Why ?


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17008
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 147 of 382 (884755)
03-06-2021 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
03-06-2021 3:28 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
And the most recent essay on Stephen Law’s blog is absolutely relevant.

For the record I hold that female “circumcision” is wrong, and astrology is bunk.

(Morality is a bit fraught and I think it tends to fall between what Laws calls “interesting relativism” and “conceptual relativism”. On the other hand, strology would need a lot of watering down to get to a position where it’s sort of defensible)


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17008
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 149 of 382 (884759)
03-07-2021 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by AZPaul3
03-06-2021 6:55 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Seems like you missed the point if the essay.

quote:
Where does this eminent philosopher get off on calling differing opinions on morality differing truths?

He doesn’t. In fact you seem closer to that view than he is. If morality is purely decided by social consensus (I say that there is a bit more to it than that) then different societies can have different moral truths.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by AZPaul3, posted 03-06-2021 6:55 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17008
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 152 of 382 (884764)
03-07-2021 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by AZPaul3
03-07-2021 10:10 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
I don't know, PaulK. When the man says so in his own paper I have a tendency to assume he accepts such

In fact he doesn’t say so. The quote on polygamy is not his view. It is introduced with the sentence

Here is a common line of argument.

And the italicised text following gives that argument.

In the second paragraph following he actually says:

The above argument for relativism about moral truth has a certain superficial appeal. But it’s fatally flawed

I hardly think that saying that an argument is “fatally flawed” is an endorsement.

I don’t know why you even think that the second paragraph you quote helps you since it is attacking an argument made by relativists. His point there is:

So, contrary to what some relativists suggest, those who reject relativism need not be arrogant, jackbooted bullies intent on ramming their beliefs down everyone else’s throat.

quote:
He keeps switching his definition of truth from opinion to factual knowledge and back trying to treat them equally

Wrong again.

quote:
Societies do not possess differing physical facts on moral issues but differing opinions on how to react to those facts.

If morality is determined by social consensus as you said then it seems that there are moral facts that are different in different societies. According to you female circumcision is moral in the societies that accept it. I disagree. But not because I think that there is some absolute morality out there which says so.

quote:
A black man is still a black man in America or in Egypt. The facts don't change. What may change is the opinion of whether it is moral to hang him. That is not a difference in Moral Truths. That is a difference in opinion on the value of human life. It is a difference in moral conduct not moral truth relative or otherwise.

It seems that you are reducing morality to the “uninteresting relativism” of Law’s essay. It’s a matter of taste, like liking sausages. It’s more than saying it is just opinion - since opinions can be wrong, while personal likes and dislikes can’t be. Or maybe you do say that there is a correct value of human life and one of the societies is wrong (which is a separate question from whether we know or can know what the correct value is).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 10:10 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 12:08 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17008
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 154 of 382 (884766)
03-07-2021 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by AZPaul3
03-07-2021 12:08 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
What he is referring to as fatally flawed is the argument that relative morality "... (is) precisely why it would be wrong for us arrogantly to impose our own particular moral point of view about polygamy on these other cultures."

That’s what you quoted before, so it seems that you are agreeing with me that he does not endorse that view, as you claimed in your previous post,

quote:
He is still referring to these things as "truths". They are not. They are moral opinions. That is my objection. Not his example of polygamy

Opinions are generally held to be true, so that isn’t much of an objection. Calling it an opinion only argues for uncertainty over whether it is actually true or not.

quote:
The facts are the same. The little girl's clit is being brutally cut off.

Yes, it is "moral" in that culture. It is an acceptable social practice. That is their moral opinion.


So why the scare quotes? Either it is moral - and if you’re right that morality is decided by social consensus is is - or it isn’t.

quote:
Of course personal likes and dislikes can be wrong

They can’t be incorrect. There is no fact of the matter that sausages should be liked by everyone,

quote:
The truths are not different.

If morality is decided by social consensus - as you claimed - they are. If you now want to argue that there is some absolute morality that might disagree - as your use of the word “opinion” and your insistence that the truth remains the same suggest - then please do so explicitly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 12:08 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 1:00 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17008
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 156 of 382 (884768)
03-07-2021 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by AZPaul3
03-07-2021 1:00 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
Well then you missed the nuance.

Well, no. You quoted an argument he disagreed with as if it expressed his view. That isn’t nuance, that’s error,

quote:
We're talking morality here. The facts that inform the morality can be said to be true or false. The morality itself has no truth value.

So why didn’t you just say that? You can embrace nihilism if you want, but that itself is an opinion.

quote:
And which do you think it is?

I don’t think that moral truths are determined by social consensus as you seemed to say.

quote:
Get real. We're not talking the personal, non-intrusive, strictly internal feeling about sausages. We're talking about the violation and mutilation of another human being. Personal likes and actions can be very wrong.

I was talking about truth rather than moral evaluation.

But according to you moral judgements are just opinions with no real truth value. So when you say that they can be wrong you mean that they can be wrong in your opinion (and in the opinion of others) but it is meaningless to say that they are actually wrong.

quote:
We really aren't communicating at all are we.

The problem seems to be mostly at your end. This is the first time in this discussion you have said that there are no moral truths, and even then you seem to contradict that. If you can’t even be clear about the basics of your own position how can you hope to have a meaningful discussion?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 03-07-2021 1:54 PM PaulK has responded
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17008
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 158 of 382 (884770)
03-07-2021 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by AnswersInGenitals
03-07-2021 1:54 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
Morality is a matter of opinion and social convention, but opinion and social convention derived from an evolutionary imperative for survival of the population.

So here is a question. In your view is that a sufficient basis to say that the killer actually is in the wrong? Or do you agree with AZPaul when he says that there are no moral facts?


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Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 3:36 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17008
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 162 of 382 (884777)
03-07-2021 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by AZPaul3
03-07-2021 3:32 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
And I am talking moral evaluation not truth.

And that was a mistake.

quote:
My contention is that relative morality is the only game in town.

Then why are you a nihilist rather than a relativist ?

quote:
The view that says because all morality is relative we, as a human society, need to accept such barbaric bloody mutilation on children is humanely abhorrent. That view may be consistent with the philosophical purity of the ivory tower but it fails, miserably, as a human construct.

But - because of your nihilism - you can’t say that it is actually wrong. Only that you object to it. I don’t think that does much better - it’s just as easy to defend abhorrent practices using it as it is to object to them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 3:32 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17008
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 163 of 382 (884778)
03-07-2021 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by AZPaul3
03-07-2021 3:36 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
Or do you agree with AZPaul when he says that there are no moral facts?

No. Never said that.

I’m afraid you did, quite explicitly:

The morality itself has no truth value.

Message 155


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 3:36 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 6:17 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17008
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 165 of 382 (884788)
03-07-2021 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by AZPaul3
03-07-2021 6:17 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
And you translate that as no moral facts

There’s no translation necessary. A fact has to be true. Something that has no truth-value can’t be a fact.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 6:17 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 7:21 PM PaulK has responded

  
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