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Author Topic:   Conversations with God
Phat
Member
Posts: 15104
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 226 of 272 (884983)
03-18-2021 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by AZPaul3
03-17-2021 4:31 PM


Re: the classic compartmentalization of Biblical Christianity
AZPaul3 writes:

It's a personal incredulity thing. I can't fathom how a properly operating brain capable of functioning in this society could so abandon the obvious physics they use to exist in this universe and submit life decisions instead to old stories and what Fr. Priest used to say. How many rosaries can fit on the edge of a piece of texas toast burnt with the image of jesus.

Who is Fr.Priest? And yes I know There is a lot of fake religion and sensationalism just as there has been for many years. My point that I want you to consider is that it is not all fake. It is indeed personally incredulous that some of this stuff is real. Starting with Jesus Christ.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by AZPaul3, posted 03-17-2021 4:31 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18930
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 227 of 272 (884984)
03-18-2021 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Phat
03-17-2021 1:29 PM


Re: the classic compartmentalization of Biblical Christianity
Phat writes:

And I worry that in the future, the "rational" secular majority will label anyone who is religious as mentally unstable as well.


The problem is that we're not labeling enough mentally unstable people as unstable. As long as they really, really, really believe, we wait for them to do something really unspeakable before we act. We should be fixing the little instabilities before they become big ones.

Phat writes:

They dont get to use the standard which they have adopted to govern everybody.


Yup, they sure do. It's called "society".

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Phat, posted 03-17-2021 1:29 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Phat, posted 03-18-2021 3:22 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18930
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 228 of 272 (884985)
03-18-2021 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Phat
03-18-2021 11:37 AM


Re: the classic compartmentalization of Biblical Christianity
Phat writes:

Yeah it is prophesied that you will get your turn.


Funny how you swallow the prophecies hook, line and sinker, yet you denigrate the words of the Master.

Phat writes:

... I know for a fact that it is real.


No you don't.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 03-18-2021 11:37 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Phat, posted 03-18-2021 12:57 PM ringo has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5671
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 229 of 272 (884987)
03-18-2021 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Phat
03-18-2021 11:37 AM


Re: the classic compartmentalization of Biblical Christianity
Isaiah explains basic Christianity quite well.

It starts with Jesus.

Those two contradict one another.

If it starts with Jesus, the Isaiah wasn't talking about Christianity at all.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 03-18-2021 11:37 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by dwise1, posted 03-18-2021 12:41 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4479
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 230 of 272 (884989)
03-18-2021 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by nwr
03-18-2021 12:19 PM


Re: the classic compartmentalization of Biblical Christianity
He's just doing the Christian Time Warp again.

I encountered the same thing with Suds on CompuServe in the late 80's. I pointed out that when we compare Mosaic Law and the Hamurabic Code we find that they are virtually identical (except that in questions of such things as whether the child of a freeman and a slave should be free or slave, Hammurabi chose freedom while Moses chose slavery).

Hammurabi predated Moses by centuries, so it's obvious who borrowed from whom. However Suds insisted that Hammurabi predating Moses proved that he had borrowed his code from Moses.

Doing the Christian Time Warp again. Go figure.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by nwr, posted 03-18-2021 12:19 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Phat, posted 03-18-2021 12:51 PM dwise1 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15104
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 231 of 272 (884990)
03-18-2021 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by dwise1
03-18-2021 12:41 PM


Re: the classic compartmentalization of Biblical Christianity
Wait. I'm confused. The "Isaiah" that I am talking about is the young man with the glasses in the video. Isaiah Saldivar. He is a delieverence minister from California. jar will despise him as he is a Biblical Christian, but he comes across as very honest to me. I had no comment on Moses or Hammurabi, but I wouldnt even lump them together.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by dwise1, posted 03-18-2021 12:41 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 03-18-2021 1:13 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 234 by dwise1, posted 03-18-2021 2:00 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15104
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 232 of 272 (884991)
03-18-2021 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by ringo
03-18-2021 12:11 PM


Re: the classic compartmentalization of Biblical Christianity
Phat writes:

... I know for a fact that it is real.

(Meaning deliverance.) I have seen it happen in front of me time and time again. Even if a few people are dramatically exaggerating in front of crowds, the vast majority of deliverance is an actual physical and mental (and obviously spiritual) manifestation.
ringo, the Saskatchewan Skeptic writes:

No you don't.

With an attitude like that, I am surprised you even know that you yourself are real. I am sure there is a way to test such an event, though you likely would dismiss interviewing the participants for their reaction.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by ringo, posted 03-18-2021 12:11 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 03-19-2021 12:21 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33256
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 233 of 272 (884992)
03-18-2021 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Phat
03-18-2021 12:51 PM


Re: the classic compartmentalization of Biblical Christianity
You gotta stop lying Phat.

I don't despise such people rather I pity them.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Phat, posted 03-18-2021 12:51 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4479
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 234 of 272 (884995)
03-18-2021 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Phat
03-18-2021 12:51 PM


Re: the classic compartmentalization of Biblical Christianity
The "Isaiah" that I am talking about is the young man with the glasses in the video. Isaiah Saldivar.

Then you should have clearly identified which "Isaiah" you were talking about in Message 225. Since hardly anybody would bother to watch what promised to be yet another junk video, the description of the video that you should have provided would have identified that ambiguous "Isaiah". At the very least, when you made your ambiguous reference to "Isaiah", you should have included some kind of clarification in his identity; ie:

quote:
"Isaiah explains basic Christianity quite well."

should have been

"Isaiah Saldivar, the young man with the glasses in the video, is a deliverance minister from California who explains basic Christianity quite well."


Or even just mentioning that your "Isaiah" is a person in the video would have been enough to differentiate him from the Old Testament prophet Isaiah, which is to whom Christians refer virtually every single time they say "Isaiah" (ie, 999,999,999 times out of a billion).

So then clearly your "Isaiah explains basic Christianity quite well." must have meant that the Old Testament prophet Isaiah was being referred to. Which would be a temporal impossibility given that Isaiah predated Jesus, who in term predated Christianity.

Hence doing the Christian Time Warp again, in which the timelines get all tangled up.

I had no comment on Moses or Hammurabi, but I wouldnt even lump them together.

I never claimed that you had made any such comment. Rather it was a member of CompuServe (Religion Forum, Science & Religion section which is where creation/evolution was discussed) circa 1990 who went by the moniker, Suds. He said he had been a brilliant mathematician but had to retire after a couple strokes. He kept coming up with the craziest stuff.

The case in point is that, upon having unearthed and translated a pillar upon which the Code of Hammurabi was inscribed, it became obvious that Mosaic Law was mostly a copy of the Code.

Now, please try to keep the timelines straight here. Hammurabi ruled Babylon c. 1792 BCE to c. 1750 BCE. As for when Moses is supposed to have lived:

quote:
Rabbinical Judaism calculated a lifespan of Moses corresponding to 1391–1271 BCE; Jerome suggested 1592 BCE, and James Ussher suggested 1571 BCE as his birth year.

Those dates would mean that Hammurabi not only came before Moses, but predated him by two to four centuries. Therefore, as to the question of whether Hammurabi would have copied from Moses or Moses from Hammurabi, it is extremely and undeniably obvious because of how time works that Moses had copied from Hammurabi. Or rather, since Moses is a legendary figure and the Book of Exodus was initially written during the Babylonian Exile, laws that had been set down by Hammurabi became incorporated in the text -- a very common phenomenon in oral traditions is the incorporation of new information into the old.

However, Suds insisted that it was Hammurabi who had copied from Moses despite his existing two to four centuries before Moses even existed.

Doing the Christian Time Warp again.

Though Suds did come up with a jewel of wisdom. Mind you, he was a staunch Christian. He stated that it does not matter one bit whether Christianity is true or not, nor whether Jesus ever actually existed. None of that actually matters, but rather what does actually matter is that the people of Europe believed that Jesus existed and that Christianity was true. Because Western Europe, by acting as if Christianity were true (note use of the subjunctive there) the outcome has been the exact same as if Christianity were actually true.

So in summary, results come from what people believe rather than from whether what you believe is true or not.

Like Rick Perry (who earned for Dubya the title in Texas of "the smart one") said:

quote:
Even a broken clock is right once a day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Phat, posted 03-18-2021 12:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2258
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 235 of 272 (884996)
03-18-2021 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Phat
03-18-2021 11:37 AM


Re: the classic compartmentalization of Biblical Christianity
Phat writes:

You will likely say that this is fake, though I know for a fact that it is real.

How? your assertions appear free of any evidence.

Phat, I asked you to read the Gospel According to Matthew, not the Necronomicon by H.P. Lovecraft.

I'm glad I don't believe in boogeymen and demons instead of physics and biology. Makes me a better person.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 03-18-2021 11:37 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Mercury
Junior Member
Posts: 17
From: Socorro, NM, USA
Joined: 06-04-2006


(2)
Message 236 of 272 (884997)
03-18-2021 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Phat
03-15-2021 3:16 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
The altar of socialism, you say?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 03-15-2021 3:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2258
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 237 of 272 (884998)
03-18-2021 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by dwise1
03-16-2021 3:29 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
dwise1 writes:

You claim to believe in and follow your "Jesus", though you seem to have a unique "Jesus" different from others' and certainly different from what's in the Bible (which you choose to ignore when it gets inconvenient) and whom you created for your own personal use (while claiming that he actually exists, unlike all the other Jesuses). And yet you adamantly refuse to follow his teachings.

Couldn't have said it better.

You're in a union! Where do you think that unions come from and how they were formed? You already worship at "the altar of socialism" and serve it.

Plus, it would help if you were to try to learn something about "the S-word" that you throw about so easily. I don't think it means what you think it means.

As a card-carrying member of the Democratic Socialists of America, I can tell anyone curious what it means to me. I didn't learn socialism from Karl Marx, I learned it primarily from Jesus Christ.

Perhaps that is what Phat is afraid of.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by dwise1, posted 03-16-2021 3:29 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 03-18-2021 2:54 PM anglagard has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15104
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 238 of 272 (884999)
03-18-2021 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by anglagard
03-18-2021 2:35 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
As a card-carrying member of the Democratic Socialists of America, I can tell anyone curious what it means to me. I didn't learn socialism from Karl Marx, I learned it primarily from Jesus Christ.

Perhaps that is what Phat is afraid of.

I can see Jesus as a socialist, though not anything like the socialist-leaning Democrats in America. Jesus suggested we share. They want it mandated.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by anglagard, posted 03-18-2021 2:35 PM anglagard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Mercury, posted 03-18-2021 3:06 PM Phat has responded
 Message 244 by ringo, posted 03-19-2021 12:27 PM Phat has responded

  
Mercury
Junior Member
Posts: 17
From: Socorro, NM, USA
Joined: 06-04-2006


Message 239 of 272 (885000)
03-18-2021 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Phat
03-18-2021 2:54 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Phat writes:

I can see Jesus as a socialist, though not anything like the socialist-leaning Democrats in America. Jesus suggested we share. They want it mandated.

What is religion, if not mandated sharing?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 03-18-2021 2:54 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Phat, posted 03-18-2021 3:30 PM Mercury has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15104
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 240 of 272 (885001)
03-18-2021 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by ringo
03-18-2021 12:08 PM


Re: the classic compartmentalization of Biblical Christianity
It's called "society".
keep in mind that society is made up of a large number of believers. (By believers I specifically mean belief that Jesus Christ lives today and that there is a spiritual realm of angelic and demonic spirits).
Ligonier Ministries writes:

“The God hypothesis is no longer necessary to explain the origin of the universe or the development of human life.”

This assertion was at the very heart of the movement that took place in the eighteenth century that we call the Enlightenment or the Aufklärung. This movement spread from Germany to France and then to England. The French Encyclopedists (writers of an encyclopedia during the eighteenth century that promoted secular humanism) were militant in their denial of the need for the existence of God. His existence was seen as no longer necessary because He had been supplanted by the “science” of that period that explained the universe in terms of spontaneous generation. Here we see an example of pseudoscience supplanting sound philosophy and theology.

Added to this, we have the agnosticism of the titanic philosopher Immanuel Kant, who argued that it is impossible for science or philosophy to acquire knowledge of the metaphysical realm of God. It was declared that all knowledge must be restricted to the realm of the natural. With the combination of Kant’s agnosticism and the hypothesis of the Enlightenment, the door was open wide to a thoroughgoing philosophy of naturalism. This philosophy captured in its wake the academic theologians of Europe in the nineteenth century.

Out of this came nineteenth-century liberalism with its militant anti-supernatural perspective. The liberalism of that era denied all of the supernatural elements of the Christian faith, including the virgin birth of Jesus, His miracles, His atoning death, and His resurrection. The supernatural was stripped altogether from Christianity. Commenting on this in the twentieth century, the Swiss theologian Emil Brunner described nineteenth century liberalism as mere “unbelief in disguise.”

This battle has been going on longer than when Bush edged out Al Gore and the Conservatives usurped the Liberals who since have battled back and forth. (split largely down the middle.) Each side sees it as a battle for hearts and minds, though I see it first as a literal supernatural war of sorts. I believe that that realm is real.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by ringo, posted 03-18-2021 12:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by AZPaul3, posted 03-18-2021 10:19 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 03-19-2021 12:32 PM Phat has responded

  
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