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Author Topic:   Conversations with God
robertleva
Member (Idle past 301 days)
Posts: 35
From: Seminole
Joined: 04-23-2021


Message 286 of 391 (885788)
04-26-2021 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by ringo
04-26-2021 3:12 PM


My faith teaches about the lies of the enemy and how he deceives as many as will allow it. I choose not to be lead to hate by ridicule. If you continue to mock or humiliate me because of my faith I will only say that I love you as a brother in Christ. We are all sons and daughters of God and we are known to Him, you included.

My faith teaches to love and forgive those who hate and mock us, so that is what I will try to do here. God bless you I am praying right now for you.

Edited by robertleva, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by ringo, posted 04-26-2021 3:12 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by ringo, posted 04-26-2021 3:33 PM robertleva has taken no action

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5073
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 287 of 391 (885789)
04-26-2021 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by robertleva
04-26-2021 3:00 PM


So you do have faith you see. You have faith that there is no God, over what ever miniscule doubt that you harbor that you could in fact be wrong and that God does exist.

Wherever did you get that from? Besides that tired old false equivalency, you are displaying a dismaying lack of understanding what atheism is.

... , simply pointing out for all to see that atheism is faith based at it's very core. Naturalism is the euphemized term for it these days, but call it what ever you want atheism requires some amount of faith like every other "religion".

Where do you get your bizarre ideas from?

Atheism is far more a position of skepticism which is more a position that the a convincing case for the multitude of different gods and religions just has not been made yet. So it's not a case of believing "there is no God", but rather there's no reason to accept your particular version of "God", which is very different from the particular versions of "God" offered by other forms of Christian and from the various versions of the gods offered by other religions. We cannot see what is supposed to be so special about your god which is not also so special about the other versions.

For example, let's consider a shipmate from NYC who claims that he owns the Brooklyn Bridge and he offers to sell it to you for just $100. If you believe what he claims and want to take him up on his offer, then you are exhibiting faith in his word. If you are skeptical about his claims, then you are saying that you have faith in ... just exactly what? Your argument that being skeptical about somebody's sketchy claims is just as faith-based as accepting those sketchy claims just does not make any sense.

If you want to make definitive statements about atheism, then you should learn something about it first. Just as you should learn something about evolution before you make use of sketchy creationist claims and arguments.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by robertleva, posted 04-26-2021 3:00 PM robertleva has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by robertleva, posted 04-26-2021 5:06 PM dwise1 has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19528
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 288 of 391 (885790)
04-26-2021 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by robertleva
04-26-2021 3:26 PM


robertleva writes:

My faith teaches about the lies of the enemy and how he deceives as many as will allow it.


You seem determined to get off on the wrong foot with me. Calling somebody a liar and an enemy is not the way to make friends. You'll go a lot farther by pointing out WHY you think something is a lie.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by robertleva, posted 04-26-2021 3:26 PM robertleva has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Phat, posted 04-26-2021 3:42 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15946
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 289 of 391 (885791)
04-26-2021 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by dwise1
04-25-2021 2:55 PM


nEWSFLASH: GOD USES ATHEIST TO TEACH BELIEVER
dwise1 writes:

Believers must be truthful and honest. Believers must always think about what they believe, even question what they believe in order to root out error in their own thinking. But by thinking about and questioning what they believe, they are actively working through and actively thinking about their beliefs which is vital to spiritual growth.

I sense a good deal of honesty in your advice. Even though you claim atheism, I will do well to heed this basic advice. jar has been trying to tell me it for years, but he insults my intelligence too much so I blow him off usually.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by dwise1, posted 04-25-2021 2:55 PM dwise1 has taken no action

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15946
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 290 of 391 (885792)
04-26-2021 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by ringo
04-26-2021 3:33 PM


Chastizing A New Member
Although it COULD be that he is addressing your demon. I would give him a bit more time before writing him off as an insincere critic. He calls me "brother" and thats more than you ever did. You get on my case for calling the Bible a "Dusty Old Book".

Robert: I may as well let you know that ringo knows his scripture quite well. He is a bit clueless about Jesus being more than a character in the book, but he does advocate following the "Message" rather than the Messenger. I argue that both are equally important. He used to attend church but became disillusioned when he saw so few Christians doing what Jesus told them to do but, rather, running around casting demons out of people, eating at Dennys, attending prophetic conferences and selling books.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by ringo, posted 04-26-2021 3:33 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by ringo, posted 04-26-2021 3:53 PM Phat has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15946
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 291 of 391 (885793)
04-26-2021 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by robertleva
04-26-2021 3:00 PM


Scared?
robertleva writes:

I resent the notion that somehow atheism is above reproach. It isn't. It deserves the exact same scrutiny we give any faith. You are one of the smart ones that is willing to question themselves. For now, that is enough for me.

Welcome to EvC, Robert. Pull up a stump and set a spell. One thing you will find after watching us all interact is that most of us are critical thinkiers and evidence based learners. Many of thee guys would argue with your assertion that atheism is a belief. They see it as the ultimate non belief. They would claim that all of us are unbelievers in most gods but that they believe in one less than you or I.

I learn their arguments and I try and defend mine, but they have caused me to question and agree with some of what is said. I do not doubt that God is real and alive, but it scares me were I to be a good critical thinker and honestly attempt to falsify my belief. I suppose I see it as a slap in the face of Jesus, but critics may argue that if the God I believe in is real, He is tough enough to handle my attempts at falsifying Him. What scares me though is that lots of these guys stopped being believers.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by robertleva, posted 04-26-2021 3:00 PM robertleva has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by robertleva, posted 04-26-2021 5:24 PM Phat has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19528
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 292 of 391 (885794)
04-26-2021 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Phat
04-26-2021 3:42 PM


Re: Chastizing A New Member
Phat writes:

Although it COULD be that he is addressing your demon.


I take full credit for all of the demons who post through this account - all for one and one for all.

Phat writes:

I would give him a bit more time before writing him off as an insincere critic.


Remember my story sbout the 1972 election? You should, I've told it often enough: the American people chose a smart crook over an honest fool.

So whether robertleva is sincerely wrong or insincerely wrong doesn't much matter to me.

Phat writes:

He calls me "brother" and thats more than you ever did.


I have three real brothers and one late brother. The honor is reserved for them.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Phat, posted 04-26-2021 3:42 PM Phat has seen this message

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 293 of 391 (885796)
04-26-2021 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by robertleva
04-26-2021 3:00 PM


A moderately clever deceit. You ask if dwise1 will c9 sided the possibiiity that he is wrong. But whether he answers “yes”or “no” you will argue that he has faith.

However, the two answers are not at all equivalent. Having the honesty to admit the possibility of error is not at all like religious faith. Not at all like your dismissal of doubt as “the lies of the Enemy”. It certainly does not justify any claim that atheism is a religion - if it did you could characterise almost any belief about the universe as a religion. Even the belief that the sun will rise tomorrow.

So I don’t see your answer as honest. It’s the rhetoric of the apologist.

quote:
I am sure this point is nothing new to you, if you have had many folks try to "convert" you (whatever that means). I am not trying to do that at all, simply pointing out for all to see that atheism is faith based at it's very core

I have certainly seen people try this falsehood. But surely an unquestioning dogmatism is more indicative of “faith” in the religious sense. So how can a degree of tentativity - a characteristic of science - be taken as proving that atheism “is faith based at its core”. That would make science even more based in “faith”. Which is hardly how the term is usually used,

quote:
I resent the notion that somehow atheism is above reproach. It isn't. It deserves the exact same scrutiny we give any faith.

Nobody has said that atheism is above reproach or should not be scrutinised. Indeed, learning about atheism as dwise1 suggested would be an essential part of any honest scrutiny.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by robertleva, posted 04-26-2021 3:00 PM robertleva has taken no action

  
robertleva
Member (Idle past 301 days)
Posts: 35
From: Seminole
Joined: 04-23-2021


Message 294 of 391 (885797)
04-26-2021 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by dwise1
04-26-2021 3:32 PM


@dwise: If you ask 10 different Christians what Christianity is you will likely get 10 different responses. If you ask 10 different atheists, yes you know this already...10 different responses. I do not presume to know your particular brand of it. I can only generalize on my experiences with atheists my entire life. Typically they do not believe in God. I have no clue where you fall in the spectrum. If you have some faith or you simply say "not sure" that is (in my opinion) a big step in the right direction. If not, well I still pray for you brother.

@ringo: we are just looping now, I urge you to just stop altogether. I see into you with the eyes of a believer, whether you like it or not. I deny you. I put my faith in Jesus Christ my Lord and savior. I have endured MUCH worse than this I promise you! God bless you and I pray for the love and peace of Jesus to fill your heart.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by dwise1, posted 04-26-2021 3:32 PM dwise1 has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by ringo, posted 04-26-2021 5:50 PM robertleva has taken no action

  
robertleva
Member (Idle past 301 days)
Posts: 35
From: Seminole
Joined: 04-23-2021


Message 295 of 391 (885798)
04-26-2021 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Phat
04-26-2021 3:51 PM


Re: Scared?
quote:
I do not doubt that God is real and alive, but it scares me were I to be a good critical thinker and honestly attempt to falsify my belief. I suppose I see it as a slap in the face of Jesus, but critics may argue that if the God I believe in is real, He is tough enough to handle my attempts at falsifying Him. What scares me though is that lots of these guys stopped being believers.

I see what you are saying but it's really OK! Jesus loves us, warts and all brother! Don't waste one second on shame in your heart, Jesus wants us to have hearts for love alone.

The fact that this forum is filled with those who have lost their way from faith does not surprise me in the least. There is false doctrine in every aspect of our lives. Every TV show / game / movie / book has completely accepted a false doctrine of Naturalism. Naturalism is taught to every single child in public school in the USA and in most of the private Christian schools as well.

It's pretty tough to hear the truth through all that noise.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Phat, posted 04-26-2021 3:51 PM Phat has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by PaulK, posted 04-26-2021 5:35 PM robertleva has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 296 of 391 (885799)
04-26-2021 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by robertleva
04-26-2021 5:24 PM


Re: Scared?
quote:
The fact that this forum is filled with those who have lost their way from faith does not surprise me in the least. There is false doctrine in every aspect of our lives. Every TV show / game / movie / book has completely accepted a false doctrine of Naturalism. Naturalism is taught to every single child in public school in the USA and in most of the private Christian schools as well.

There’s a lot of falsehood there. I gave up on Christianity for a number of reasons - but the big one was reading the Bible. Naturalism wasn’t an issue.

I very much doubt that naturalism is taught in “most of the private Christian schools”. Or really even in public schools. You don’t say what you mean (although I can guess). There is a significant distinction between teaching science over sectarian dogma and teaching naturalism.

quote:
It's pretty tough to hear the truth through all that noise.

Don’t go blaming other people. The truth can be found but you have to work at it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by robertleva, posted 04-26-2021 5:24 PM robertleva has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19528
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 297 of 391 (885800)
04-26-2021 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by robertleva
04-26-2021 5:06 PM


robertleva writes:

@ringo: we are just looping now, I urge you to just stop altogether.


quote:
Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie
I don't stop.

robertleva writes:

I see into you with the eyes of a believer, whether you like it or not.


You're revealing more about yourself than you are about me.

robertleva writes:

I pray for the love and peace of Jesus to fill your heart.


I'm more peaceful (and loving) now than I was when I was a Christian.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by robertleva, posted 04-26-2021 5:06 PM robertleva has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by dwise1, posted 04-27-2021 2:12 AM ringo has seen this message

  
robertleva
Member (Idle past 301 days)
Posts: 35
From: Seminole
Joined: 04-23-2021


Message 298 of 391 (885801)
04-26-2021 6:24 PM


General reply to PaulK, ringo and honestly anyone else who attempts this kind of thing: You are wasting your time. You will never affect my faith in Jesus Christ and any attempts to humiliate / mock / harass me get met with the exact same thing: Love and forgiveness as Jesus teaches.

There is a story in the Bible (I am not able to quote chapter verse off the top of my head) where Jesus tells his apostles that if you give the message and someone refuses to listen you simply wipe your feet at their door and move on. It is not my place to convince anyone here of anything. I leave those kinds of difficult things to almighty God. I do what I can for those inside my "circle of influence" as I like to refer to it. I have delivered the message. I wipe my feet at the door of any who refuse to hear me. I give you nothing but love and forgiveness now. This is the core of my faith.

Edited by robertleva, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by ringo, posted 04-26-2021 6:31 PM robertleva has taken no action
 Message 300 by PaulK, posted 04-27-2021 12:39 AM robertleva has taken no action
 Message 302 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2021 2:25 AM robertleva has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19528
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(3)
Message 299 of 391 (885802)
04-26-2021 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by robertleva
04-26-2021 6:24 PM


robertleva writes:

There is a story in the Bible (I am not able to quote chapter verse off the top of my head) where Jesus tells his apostles that if you give the message and someone refuses to listen you simply wipe your feet at their door and move on.


quote:
Matthew 10:14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by robertleva, posted 04-26-2021 6:24 PM robertleva has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 300 of 391 (885803)
04-27-2021 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by robertleva
04-26-2021 6:24 PM


quote:
General reply to PaulK, ringo and honestly anyone else who attempts this kind of thing: You are wasting your time. You will never affect my faith in Jesus Christ and any attempts to humiliate / mock / harass me get met with the exact same thing: Love and forgiveness as Jesus teaches.

I am not trying to humiliate, mock or harass you. I am pointing out what you are doing. Your refusal to engage in honest discussion only supports my points. And making false accusations is hardly compatible with”Love and forgiveness”.

quote:
There is a story in the Bible (I am not able to quote chapter verse off the top of my head) where Jesus tells his apostles that if you give the message and someone refuses to listen you simply wipe your feet at their door and move on.

Of course listening does not mean automatic agreement. I listened. You didn’t like it because I dared to point out what I heard.

quote:
It is not my place to convince anyone here of anything. I leave those kinds of difficult things to almighty God.

In other words you won’t even explain what you mean by “naturalism” being taught in many private Christian schools. How convenient that we must wait for God to do that. It’s also hardly compatible with subjecting atheism to actual scrutiny (but then grossly stretching the definition of “faith” to try to label atheism a religion is hardly scrutiny, is it?)

quote:
I do what I can for those inside my "circle of influence" as I like to refer to it.

What you are doing doesn’t seem to be very nice.

quote:
I have delivered the message. I wipe my feet at the door of any who refuse to hear me. I give you nothing but love and forgiveness now.

It doesn’t look like that. It looks more like you running away - and making false accusations - because your claims are untrue and you know it.

quote:
This is the core of my faith.

I believe that your are showing the core of your faith, but it is neither love, nor forgiveness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by robertleva, posted 04-26-2021 6:24 PM robertleva has taken no action

  
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