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Author Topic:   Conversations with God
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 301 of 382 (885804)
04-27-2021 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by ringo
04-26-2021 5:50 PM


I'm more peaceful (and loving) now than I was when I was a Christian.

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend at church (UU).

I mentioned how creationists' theology is constructed in such a way that if the world is found to be the way it actually is (eg, ancient with abundant evidence of it's being far older than 6,000 years (though creationists usually say "10,000 years" in order to better hide what they're doing), then they are taught that that would disprove God (eg, John Morris of the ICR saying, "If the world is older than 10,000 years, then Scripture has no meaning."). Because of that, creationists need to find any way they can to discount or completely ignore that contradictory evidence.

For several years Gary had been a fundamentalist Christian. In everyday life he would see things contrary to what his faith taught him did not exist and could not exist for Scripture to have any meaning, so he had to ignore them, turn a blind eye to them and not even notice what was right there in front of his own eyes. As each day went by, he would have to deploy even more defensive mechanisms to deny the existence of all that contradictory evidence.

Finally, that mental effort just proved to be too much for him. At that point, he decided to apply the Matthew 7:20 Test ("by their fruits, you will know them") on his own religion. Yes, there were some good things about it, but he also saw that there were wicked things as well (using the terminology of the Test). Since the Matthew 7:20 Test does not allow a "good true" to produce any wicked fruit, Gary's own Christianity failed the Test.

That is when and how he became an atheist. And he found that he is so very much more spiritually fulfilled as a "complete atheist and total humanist" than he had ever been as a Christian.

Since the real world wasn't how he was taught it needed to be


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by ringo, posted 04-26-2021 5:50 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8200
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 302 of 382 (885806)
04-27-2021 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by robertleva
04-26-2021 6:24 PM


robert writes:

General reply to PaulK, ringo and honestly anyone else who attempts this kind of thing: You are wasting your time. You will never affect my faith in Jesus Christ and any attempts to humiliate / mock / harass me get met with the exact same thing: Love and forgiveness as Jesus teaches.

And we've seen the persecution/masochism tactic before too.

If you walk into the snake pit, expect to get bitten. And don't expect the snakes to care much for your love and forgiveness; that's for your own imagined and selfish gratification, not ours. Does it make you feel ever-so pure and strong in your faith? Examine your conscience.

Atheism as a belief! Really, you'll have to a lot better than that in here Chuck.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by robertleva, posted 04-26-2021 6:24 PM robertleva has not yet responded

  
robertleva
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 35
From: Seminole
Joined: 04-23-2021


Message 303 of 382 (885807)
04-27-2021 7:00 AM


This is not the snake pit! Try spreading the word in a "professional" gaming community like League of Legends. You guys are a bunch of sweethearts compared to that ha!

Seriously though, I am only sending y'all prayers of love and forgiveness. I have delivered my message. I am a man of faith, and I am willing to engage anyone who wants to hear my words in good faith. For those who will not hear, it is not my place to force you to believe. I wipe the dust from my feet at your door and move on. God bless and may the peace of Jesus fill your heart.


Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by PaulK, posted 04-27-2021 7:12 AM robertleva has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16974
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 304 of 382 (885808)
04-27-2021 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by robertleva
04-27-2021 7:00 AM


quote:
I have delivered my message.

That “faith” and “religion” should be interpreted in broad ways just so that you can label atheism a religion? That Christian schools are somehow teaching naturalism but you refuse to say what you mean by that? An odd message and incomplete message, and not one you should expect to be unquestionably believed.

quote:
I am a man of faith, and I am willing to engage anyone who wants to hear my words in good faith.

That isn’t true, though is it? I am willing to listen to your words in good faith, yet you refuse to engage.

quote:
For those who will not hear, it is not my place to force you to believe. I wipe the dust from my feet at your door and move on

I do not believe that Jesus intended that the disciples should expected to be believed in absolutely every claim that they made - no matter whether it is part of Jesus’ message or not. And yet that seems to be your interpretation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 7:00 AM robertleva has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 7:29 AM PaulK has responded

  
robertleva
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 35
From: Seminole
Joined: 04-23-2021


Message 305 of 382 (885811)
04-27-2021 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by PaulK
04-27-2021 7:12 AM


Paulk: This is the Faith and Belief section of the board. This supposed to be a place for people of faith to share their beliefs. The OP was started to talk about how we as individuals pray. I am very willing to engage in a discussion about that.

But then I see 15000 post count ppl like you and ringo here. Why? The only reason you post in here is to do the work of the enemy. I see these obvious traps for what they and I will not surrender my joy by waging in some pointless circular discussion that you have likely had a bunch of times already.

I have been given my marching orders already. I am to speak my message for all who will hear and let God almighty take care of the things that are beyond my control. There are plenty of faith hating forums on this board where you can go and speak to other like minded folks. But can you let those who want to share their experiences of faith be left in peace here?

And if you can't stop, you should maybe do some internal reflecting on just why you feel the need to try so hard to stomp out any faith you see being shared. The enemy is using you brother.

Edited by robertleva, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by PaulK, posted 04-27-2021 7:12 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 307 by PaulK, posted 04-27-2021 8:33 AM robertleva has not yet responded
 Message 308 by Phat, posted 04-27-2021 9:52 AM robertleva has responded
 Message 309 by ringo, posted 04-27-2021 10:47 AM robertleva has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33412
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 306 of 382 (885812)
04-27-2021 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by robertleva
04-27-2021 7:29 AM


Speaking as a Christian, the Enemy is Biblical Christianity, Creationism, Intelligent Design, Fundamentalism and modern US based Conservative Evangelical Christianity.

That is the true enemy and the greatest threat to the US and the World today.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 7:29 AM robertleva has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16974
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 307 of 382 (885813)
04-27-2021 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by robertleva
04-27-2021 7:29 AM


quote:
This is the Faith and Belief section of the board. This supposed to be a place for people of faith to share their beliefs. The OP was started to talk about how we as individuals pray. I am very willing to engage in a discussion about that.

If you were right about the forum’s purpose and if I had introduced these topics that would be a quite proper response. But since you are wrong about the purpose and you introduced both topics yourself it looks more like an excuse to run away from a discussion that isn’t going your way.

(The sample question for the forum is “Is God an objective reality or a subjective concept?” - that hardly conveys the idea that it is solely for believers to share their beliefs)

quote:
But then I see 15000 post count ppl like you and ringo here. Why? The only reason you post in here is to do the work of the enemy. I see these obvious traps for what they and I will not surrender my joy by waging in some pointless circular discussion that you have likely had a bunch of times already.

My objective here is quite otherwise. You will note that neither point is an attempt to stamp on your faith. It is not crucial to Christianity to label atheism a religion, nor to accuse other Christians of denying God. Nor are there any traps in my writing.

quote:
I have been given my marching orders already. I am to speak my message for all who will hear and let God almighty take care of the things that are beyond my control. There are plenty of faith hating forums on this board where you can go and speak to other like minded folks. But can you let those who want to share their experiences of faith be left in peace here?

Had you stuck to sharing your experiences of faith I would not have responded. But you did not. And I very much doubt that God has an interest in promulgating your personal opinions.

This board is dedicated to discussion. It is not one where you can expect to get away with making false claims unchallenged. You do not get to dictate the purpose of this board or demand that members who have been here for 18 years should bow to your wishes.

quote:
And if you can't stop, you should maybe do some internal reflecting on just why you feel the need to try so hard to stomp out any faith you see being shared. The enemy is using you brother.

If you can’t stop telling falsehoods and try to paint yourself as being persecuted just because you get caught telling falsehoods maybe you should do some internal reflection. And think about whose side YOU are on.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 7:29 AM robertleva has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 308 of 382 (885816)
04-27-2021 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by robertleva
04-27-2021 7:29 AM


Why Stick Around? My Belief
I suppose its time for me to weigh-in to this series of conversations. Robert,I will not take sides here only due to the fact that you say that you will continue to love and pray for anyone whom you see as a tool of the enemy. I will comment publicly about some of the veteran members whom I engage in conversations, debates, and arguments with on nearly a daily basis for many years. I have learned the art of snake charming, and if there are any snakes here in Percys pit they have served to strengthen my own basic arguments which I feel strongly about as well as to challenge some of the PRATTS and ideological dogmas which I picked up through many years of interaction with the local church. So here I go:
robertleva, henceforth known as RL writes:

The fact that this forum is filled with those who have lost their way from faith does not surprise me in the least. There is false doctrine in every aspect of our lives. Every TV show / game / movie / book has completely accepted a false doctrine of Naturalism. Naturalism is taught to every single child in public school in the USA and in most of the private Christian schools as well.
It's pretty tough to hear the truth through all that noise.

As one who has many Christian friends, some of them well meaning such as yourself, I fully understand where you are coming from. I do not totally agree that we should avoid controversy with other humans,however. Iron sharpens iron. Honestly, brother, there have been times when I got so frustrated with EvC Forum that I was ready to leave...thinking that my time on earth could be better spent elsewhere. One thing that I did find here, however, were (like you said)
quote:
The fact that this forum is filled with those who have lost their way from faith does not surprise me in the least.
It did surprise me. Still does. There are a number of EvC members who once believed in Jesus Christ as living today and who now regard Him as a cultural myth at best, and an evil cultural meme at worst. So why do I stay? Because I do not see the members here as snakes. They may battle with inner demons, but a case can be made that organized religion here in the United States also battles with these demons and I believe very strongly that we *all* have a spiritual battle within our minds and hearts.

Note what one commentator says: What does Ephesians 6:12 mean? Even in this argument, I have some here who disagree with my choice and chosen sources of interpretation. I don't mind being challenged, even if it were Satan himself who led the Forum against me. (I used to think it was, but Jesus told me to pray for EvC Forum just like you say you are going to do. There are many wise minds and good hearts here, and it is for this reason that I hang around. That plus I just like to argue.

Lets pause a moment and listen to one of my favorite songs:

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 7:29 AM robertleva has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 1:20 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 309 of 382 (885818)
04-27-2021 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by robertleva
04-27-2021 7:29 AM


robertleva writes:

But then I see 15000 post count ppl like you and ringo here. Why?


Sixteen years. Thats only about 1000 posts per year, about three per day, not very different from your own posting rate.

robertleva writes:

The only reason you post in here is to do the work of the enemy.


I don't have any enemies. It's too bad that you do.

robertleva writes:

I will not surrender my joy....


You don't seem very joyful.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 7:29 AM robertleva has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Phat, posted 04-27-2021 3:10 PM ringo has responded

  
robertleva
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 35
From: Seminole
Joined: 04-23-2021


Message 310 of 382 (885819)
04-27-2021 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Phat
04-27-2021 9:52 AM


Re: Why Stick Around? My Belief
Iron does indeed sharpen iron, but I will get none of that here. These folks cannot hold a candle to the minds of Hitchens and Dawkins. I've seen those types, the so called "champions of atheism", be hilariously destroyed in public debates by Lennox for example. So no, we need not wade in here. They have nothing new to add to the discussion and I will not waste any time on their simplistic traps, only add them to my prayers. I will also add a prayer for myself to not harden my heart towards them as I am tempted by the enemy to do.

Your original post was asking about how we as individuals pray and what our own personal experiences with God have been like. I absolutely loved this idea for a topic!

But here has been none of that discussion at all...not even from you the original poster. Can I ask you why not? I almost feel like you are standing at the water's edge, just a little too cautious to jump fully into faith. I ask you to jump right into the water and fully embrace Jesus. He will carry your burdens, but you have to give it to Him! Do not let anyone here make you feel any shame for your faith. Be a proud Christian and shrug off these meat hooks that the enemy is trying to get into you.

Your faith in Christ is the ultimate armor against all foes my brother. You don't need to listen to anything I say, just put your faith in Christ. God bless.

Edited by robertleva, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Phat, posted 04-27-2021 9:52 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2021 2:11 PM robertleva has not yet responded
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8200
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 311 of 382 (885820)
04-27-2021 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by robertleva
04-27-2021 1:20 PM


Re: Why Stick Around? My Belief
robert writes:

I've seen those types, the so called "champions of atheism", be hilariously destroyed in public debates by Lennox for example

I'd like to see that, and you provide the links please.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 1:20 PM robertleva has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by PaulK, posted 04-28-2021 3:38 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16974
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 312 of 382 (885821)
04-27-2021 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by robertleva
04-27-2021 1:20 PM


Re: Why Stick Around? My Belief
quote:
Iron does indeed sharpen iron, but I will get none of that here. These folks cannot hold a candle to the minds of Hitchens and Dawkins. I've seen those types, the so called "champions of atheism", be hilariously destroyed in public debates by Lennox for example.

Even if that was entirely true, it wouldn’t mean that you don’t have something to learn. You are not Lennox, for a start. Indeed the fact that you are running away because you can’t defend your assertions indicates that you do have a lot to learn. (For a start, critically examine your own arguments to see how they stand up - or in your case, don’t). That you compound the defeat with further laughable falsehoods is another error.

In fact I very much doubt that Lennox won his debates by pretending that he hadn’t been making an argument, only “sharing his faith” or claiming that his opponent was persecuting him and should leave. So maybe you shouldn’t be implying that you are anywhere near his equal.

quote:
They have nothing new to add to the discussion and I will not waste any time on their simplistic traps, only add them to my prayers

There are no traps. Only the truth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 1:20 PM robertleva has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 3:17 PM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 315 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 3:18 PM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 313 of 382 (885822)
04-27-2021 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by ringo
04-27-2021 10:47 AM


Conversations Need Not Be Confrontational
ringo writes:

robertleva writes:

But then I see 15000 post count ppl like you and ringo here. Why?


Sixteen years. Thats only about 1000 posts per year, about three per day, not very different from your own posting rate.

robertleva writes:

The only reason you post in here is to do the work of the enemy.


I don't have any enemies. It's too bad that you do.

robertleva writes:

I will not surrender my joy....


You don't seem very joyful.
You mentioned how you reserve the honor of the label Brother to your biological siblings. An interesting story. People at church call me "brother" all the time, but I feel closer to you, AZ, PaulK, Tangle, and even jar (and those of you whom I didnt mention) than I do to the members at church. One thing I have learned at EvC is that GOD Himself,(through Jesus and the Holy Spirit) can not only speak through a Donkey but can and does speak quite adeptly through an atheist, secular humanist, or agnostic. I can always tell when you have the Spirit because you speak with an added sense of humor. Somehow I imagine that the Lord has a big laugh about all of this.,...and yet He weeps as well because so few of His chosen guests even bothered to show up at the banquet.

If I recall, however, you guys went easy on me for the first couple of years I was here. We often take the gloves off and go toe to toe now...and I would imagine that new members end up scratching their heads as to why we park ourselves in this little corner(Percys Secular Chapel) of the internet and rehash the same arguments (albeit using different words,philosophies and approaches)


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by ringo, posted 04-27-2021 10:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by ringo, posted 04-27-2021 8:23 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
robertleva
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 35
From: Seminole
Joined: 04-23-2021


Message 314 of 382 (885823)
04-27-2021 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by PaulK
04-27-2021 2:18 PM


Re: Why Stick Around? My Belief
double post-

Edited by robertleva, : duplicate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by PaulK, posted 04-27-2021 2:18 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
robertleva
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 35
From: Seminole
Joined: 04-23-2021


Message 315 of 382 (885824)
04-27-2021 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by PaulK
04-27-2021 2:18 PM


Re: Why Stick Around? My Belief
@paul If you know Lennox and his work, and his arguments do not convince you than mine sure won't. Regardless buddy please try and hear this: I am *not* trying to convince you of anything.

I came here to speak to others of faith about prayers and the nature of my experiences with God. It is not my place to try to convince you. I have done my part and I will keep you in my prayers now as I said. So please just move on in peace and love my brother, you are wasting your time I assure you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by PaulK, posted 04-27-2021 2:18 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by vimesey, posted 04-27-2021 3:33 PM robertleva has responded
 Message 319 by PaulK, posted 04-27-2021 3:46 PM robertleva has responded
 Message 320 by dwise1, posted 04-27-2021 3:59 PM robertleva has not yet responded
 Message 323 by Phat, posted 04-27-2021 4:01 PM robertleva has responded

  
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