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Author Topic:   Conversations with God
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1256
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 6.6


(1)
Message 316 of 382 (885825)
04-27-2021 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by robertleva
04-27-2021 3:18 PM


Re: Why Stick Around? My Belief
Oh, you won't find gullible rubes here RL - you'll find critical, intelligent thinkers who challenge not just you, but each other. You won't silence us by trying to dismiss us - you'll amuse us, but not challenge us. You're an opponent we're used to beating and see running away.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 3:18 PM robertleva has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 3:42 PM vimesey has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 317 of 382 (885826)
04-27-2021 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by robertleva
04-25-2021 10:46 AM


Conversations 101 Topic Synopsis
RL addressing PaulK writes:

I came here to speak to others of faith about prayers and the nature of my experiences with God. It is not my place to try to convince you. I have done my part and I will keep you in my prayers now as I said. So please just move on in peace and love my brother, you are wasting your time I assure you.


OK. Lets revisit my topic. (You will find that I am one of the few who dredge up old topics and revisit them...especially if I started them! )

Message 1 Topic Starter writes:

For those of you who pray and who believe that you are having a conversation with God (an entity that you believe is living and aware and that is outside of your conscience,strictly speaking)
Perhaps you could share some of the dynamics of the prayers, mantras, and conversations. I realize that for some of us this is an important and personal thing, so lets keep the jokes limited to ourselves.

  • What do you ask and/or talk about?
  • Do you hear answers or feel inner confirmation in any way?
  • Does the action of communication with God change you in any way?
  • What do you ask and/or talk about? I talk with God nearly all day every day. I am learning to listen more and talk less in my old age. I do hear answers or...more than likely these answers come to me after I pray out loud in my mind. Critics would say I am merely talking to myself, but I wont even bother trying to convince them otherwise.
    As for changing me, I believe that communication with anyone can and does potentially change me a little bit every day. I prefer not to be an old stick in the mud.

    RL writes:

    Here is how I pray most often: I start by asking forgiveness for my sins in the name of Jesus. I like to get clean before addressing the Holy Father. Then I pray for whomever has triggered this need in the first place. For example, if I see a homeless person that I cannot directly go out and help, I try to at least say a prayer for them.

    When I feel the Lord's presence I get an overwhelming feeling that nearly instantly brings tears. It's a complex feeling, a combination of joy, relief and awe and it is very powerful.

    I feel much the same way sometimes. Othet times I feel nothing at all, but I am aware that God is listening. Like Santa Claus, He sees me when I'm sleeping. He knows when Im awake. he knows if Ive been bad or good...so I try for goodness sake!

    RL writes:

    our original post was asking about how we as individuals pray and what our own personal experiences with God have been like. I absolutely loved this idea for a topic!

    But here has been none of that discussion at all...not even from you the original poster. Can I ask you why not? I almost feel like you are standing at the water's edge, just a little too cautious to jump fully into faith. I ask you to jump right into the water and fully embrace Jesus. He will carry your burdens, but you have to give it to Him! Do not let anyone here make you feel any shame for your faith. Be a proud Christian and shrug off these meat hooks that the enemy is trying to get into you.

    Ask anyone here how strong my faith is. They never worry about my faith. They are more concerned with my daily actions.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 273 by robertleva, posted 04-25-2021 10:46 AM robertleva has not yet responded

      
    robertleva
    Member (Idle past 52 days)
    Posts: 35
    From: Seminole
    Joined: 04-23-2021


    Message 318 of 382 (885827)
    04-27-2021 3:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 316 by vimesey
    04-27-2021 3:33 PM


    Re: Why Stick Around? My Belief
    I guess I still don't understand why you are all in this particular thread? No one has answered that. This thread is about how people of faith pray and personal experiences with God. Why are you unfaithful even here if the entire point of the thread presupposes the audience have faith?

    You give yourselves away I'm afraid. You all have plenty of places to share your thoughts about how silly believers are, but when you choose to come into a thread like this which is specifically supposed to be a place for people to share their faith...

    I see you. I deny you. You will never have this follower of Christ.

    Edited by robertleva, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 316 by vimesey, posted 04-27-2021 3:33 PM vimesey has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 321 by vimesey, posted 04-27-2021 3:59 PM robertleva has not yet responded
     Message 327 by ringo, posted 04-27-2021 8:28 PM robertleva has responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16974
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.6


    (2)
    Message 319 of 382 (885828)
    04-27-2021 3:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 315 by robertleva
    04-27-2021 3:18 PM


    Re: Why Stick Around? My Belief
    quote:
    @paul If you know Lennox and his work, and his arguments do not convince you than mine sure won't. Regardless buddy please try and hear this: I am *not* trying to convince you of anything.

    Presumably you gave up when you found that your assertions were indefensible.

    quote:
    I came here to speak to others of faith about prayers and the nature of my experiences with God.

    And yet the points I took issue with were not about either, were they? What you came here to do matters much less than what you actually do.

    quote:
    So please just move on in peace and love my brother, you are wasting your time I assure you.

    You may indeed be a lost cause, mired in dishonesty and delusion - and I don’t refer to Christianity. But even that doesn’t mean that I am wasting my time by correcting your falsehoods. The truth is important, whatever you may think.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 315 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 3:18 PM robertleva has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 322 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 4:01 PM PaulK has responded

      
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 4702
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 5.1


    (2)
    Message 320 of 382 (885829)
    04-27-2021 3:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 315 by robertleva
    04-27-2021 3:18 PM


    Re: Why Stick Around? My Belief
    It is not my place to try to convince you. I have done my part and I will keep you in my prayers now as I said. So please just move on in peace and love my brother, you are wasting your time I assure you.

    But you forget the lurkers, who are always with us. 76 of them right now (as of the moment I started this edit). How you conduct yourself in discussion (this is a discussion forum, not a circle-jerk. If you are looking for a circle-jerk, then find a creationist forum where non-creationists are immediately expelled the moment they raise any kind of question (several members here have had that experience) while the creationists are encouraged to circle up to their hearts' content. Of course, they'll never learn anything either.

    Creationist Dr. Jonathan Sarfati of Creation Ministries International and associated with Answers in Genesis also expressed concern about the negative effects for the Christian message when onlookers watch a Christian use bad claims and arguments (which is true of all creationist and most Christian arguments, but Sarfati was careful to not go there). From his feedback letter (AiG Negative Feedback, 02 December 2002 (link broken)) in response to Kent Hovind's angry letter denouncing the AiG article, "Claims We Really Wish Creationists Would Not Use":

    quote:
    "As said in the original Don’t Use page, the harm is in using something which is not true, because the cause of the one who is ‘the truth’ cannot be helped thereby. And your own recent experience reinforces something else we said—that using discredited arguments can backfire on the user. So our aim was to help Christians to avoid arguments that are likely to backfire, and return their focus to the Word of God not ‘evidence’."

    ...

    "But more and more over the last few years, we have noticed tens of thousands of Christians excitedly using arguments over the Web, for instance, that are a plain embarrassment to those with scientific training. It was like watching your brother enter the ring thinking he had a killer punch, and watching him get cut to ribbons. Further, and most importantly, it had escalated to the point where it was a hindrance to soul winning, since it gave the hearers a ‘legitimate’ excuse to reject Christ. And all we did at that point was to publish an ‘advice’ article. The only time it became relevant to a specific creationist was when Kent [Hovind] himself decided to align himself publicly with a justification of false arguments. If it had been one or two minor points of disagreement, OK, but when it reinforces some of the most blatant fallacies, and even defends fraud, at what point does one NOT face one's responsibilities to the innocents being ‘slaughtered’ in the belief that they are getting sound ammunition?"

    ...

    " ... , we actually do know people who say they almost gave the faith away when they found out that a particular argument was fallacious, and who say that finding Christians with the integrity to avoid falsehood, no matter what the cost, helped restore it. ... We know of many people, outside and inside of the church, who will no longer even look at or consider the authority of the Bible in Genesis, in its history, cosmology, etc. because of bad experiences with blatant pseudo-arguments applied by enthusiasts who had been fed creationist non-arguments."


    His colleague, Dr. Don Batten, said of Carl Baugh, a very rich source of really bad creationist claims:

    quote:
    It is sad that Carl Baugh will 'muddy the water' for many Christians and non-Christians. Some Christians will try to use Baugh's 'evidences' in witnessing and get 'shot down' by someone who is scientifically literate. The ones witnessed to will thereafter be wary of all creation evidences and even more inclined to dismiss Christians as nut cases not worth listening to.

    Also, the Christian is likely to be less apt to witness, even perhaps tempted to doubt their own faith (wondering what other misinformation they have gullibly believed from Christian teachers). CSF ministers to strengthen the faith of Christians and equip them for the work of evangelism and, sadly, the long term effect of Carl Baugh's efforts will be detrimental to both.

    We would much rather be spending all our time positively encouraging and equipping rather than countering the well-intentioned but misguided efforts of some like Carl Baugh, but we cannot stand idly by knowing people are being misled. Truth sets people free, not error!


    Both of those leading creationists were issuing the same warnings that I have been for decades: using false claims can only do harm to your cause and to your own faith. It has been said that creationism is perhaps the greatest leading contributor to the spread and growth of atheism.

    By demonstrating to the lurkers the weakness of your position, you are making your own contribution to that effect.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 315 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 3:18 PM robertleva has not yet responded

      
    vimesey
    Member
    Posts: 1256
    From: Birmingham, England
    Joined: 09-21-2011
    Member Rating: 6.6


    (1)
    Message 321 of 382 (885830)
    04-27-2021 3:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 318 by robertleva
    04-27-2021 3:42 PM


    Re: Why Stick Around? My Belief
    It's a place to debate, not to preach and worship. The clue is in the letter V.

    Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 318 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 3:42 PM robertleva has not yet responded

      
    robertleva
    Member (Idle past 52 days)
    Posts: 35
    From: Seminole
    Joined: 04-23-2021


    Message 322 of 382 (885831)
    04-27-2021 4:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 319 by PaulK
    04-27-2021 3:46 PM


    Re: Why Stick Around? My Belief
    quote:
    You may indeed be a lost cause, mired in dishonesty and delusion - and I don’t refer to Christianity. But even that doesn’t mean that I am wasting my time by correcting your falsehoods. The truth is important, whatever you may think.

    You are completely right my brother. I still love you as a son of almighty God. Say anything you want to about me. I will accept it all and more, brother. I love you and I forgive you and I pray for you. God bless.

    -Most folks call me Rob.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 319 by PaulK, posted 04-27-2021 3:46 PM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 324 by PaulK, posted 04-27-2021 4:20 PM robertleva has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15596
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 323 of 382 (885832)
    04-27-2021 4:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 315 by robertleva
    04-27-2021 3:18 PM


    Dr.Lennox
    Robert, check out this link. Message 1

    Also this one. Message 55

    Dr.Lennox is also one of my favorite apologists.

    I will say this, however. The peanut gallery here is collectively as good as any apologetic argument online. If I ever become an apologist, I will have them to thank for it.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 315 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 3:18 PM robertleva has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 325 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 4:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16974
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 324 of 382 (885833)
    04-27-2021 4:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 322 by robertleva
    04-27-2021 4:01 PM


    Re: Why Stick Around? My Belief
    You will note that I didn’t say that you were a lost cause. If you can be lead to honesty that would be something worthwhile.

    Look back over your behaviour and ask yourself whether it really reflects well on your faith. If your arguments fail then have the honesty to admit that rather than trying to pretend that you never made it, or to pretending that you are being unfairly attacked for your faith.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 322 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 4:01 PM robertleva has not yet responded

      
    robertleva
    Member (Idle past 52 days)
    Posts: 35
    From: Seminole
    Joined: 04-23-2021


    Message 325 of 382 (885834)
    04-27-2021 4:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 323 by Phat
    04-27-2021 4:01 PM


    Re: Dr.Lennox
    quote:
    Robert, check out this link. Message 1

    Loved this thanks for that!

    I will try and tune out the noise and speak to you specifically Phat. Here is an interesting idea I had about our prayers:

    To sum it up I was thinking that Jesus may well be beyond time, and so we can send Him prayers right now to console Him during the time of crucifixion. We can let Him know that He is saving millions of souls and we appreciate it and we are thankful and grateful to Him. Even if that is not how it works, I figure the Lord knows the intent of our hearts regardless and this is a good prayer no matter what.

    The story of the night before the crucifixion hits home for me personally too. It tells of Jesus asking for His apostles, His friends, to stay up all night for some company. He knew what was to come, the enormity of it, and He wanted some company to share that burden with. The apostles...fell asleep.

    This story hits me because there have been so many nights when I felt dread about the next day for what ever reasons. I have been blessed to have had a wife to be there with me during these times. We get through these testing times with prayers and faith. I pray for Jesus to receive comfort then as well, if it possible.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 323 by Phat, posted 04-27-2021 4:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19226
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 326 of 382 (885835)
    04-27-2021 8:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 313 by Phat
    04-27-2021 3:10 PM


    Re: Conversations Need Not Be Confrontational
    Phat writes:

    People at church call me "brother" all the time, but I feel closer to you, AZ, PaulK, Tangle, and even jar (and those of you whom I didnt mention) than I do to the members at church.


    I don't think of brotherhood in terms of closeness. I have one brother who lives 350 miles away, I haven't seen him face-to-face in six years and he doesn't have a phone or Internet. But he's my brother.

    Phat writes:

    I can always tell when you have the Spirit because you speak with an added sense of humor.


    The next step is to realize that that "spirit" has nothing to do with any external entity.

    Phat writes:

    ...and yet He weeps as well because so few of His chosen guests even bothered to show up at the banquet.


    If there was an (alien over)Lord, my guess is that he would weep over the likes of robertleva.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 313 by Phat, posted 04-27-2021 3:10 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19226
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 327 of 382 (885836)
    04-27-2021 8:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 318 by robertleva
    04-27-2021 3:42 PM


    Re: Why Stick Around? My Belief
    Phat writes:

    This thread is about how people of faith pray and personal experiences with God. Why are you unfaithful even here if the entire point of the thread presupposes the audience have faith?


    Many of us used to have faith.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 318 by robertleva, posted 04-27-2021 3:42 PM robertleva has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 329 by robertleva, posted 04-28-2021 7:08 AM ringo has responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16974
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 328 of 382 (885838)
    04-28-2021 3:38 AM
    Reply to: Message 311 by Tangle
    04-27-2021 2:11 PM


    Re: Why Stick Around? My Belief
    quote:
    I'd like to see that, and you provide the links please.

    I’ve found a transcript of one of the debates and proposed a topic to discuss it.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 311 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2021 2:11 PM Tangle has not yet responded

      
    robertleva
    Member (Idle past 52 days)
    Posts: 35
    From: Seminole
    Joined: 04-23-2021


    (1)
    Message 329 of 382 (885843)
    04-28-2021 7:08 AM
    Reply to: Message 327 by ringo
    04-27-2021 8:28 PM


    Re: Why Stick Around? My Belief
    quote:
    Many of us used to have faith.

    One must learn to differentiate between the glory of almighty God, and the evil that has been done in His name. I am on your side most likely in most of what you do not like about religion. I claim no "sect" of Christianity, I am simply a man who accepts Christ as his savior and I try to read and follow the Bible. I pray for the understanding to know Him better as well.

    I think dividing Christians into "Catholics" and "Protestants" is the work of the enemy. There is only one core belief that matters and that is faith in Christ. As long as we share that, we can be saved. I have long been wary of any type of organized religion, the organizations themselves, NOT the flock.

    That is not to say that the churches do nothing to help the flock, of course they do. I just feel like the time has come to destroy all the trivial details that we have been using to divide up the Christian population.

    I ask you to set aside all this negativity that consumes your posts for a second and rationally consider this question: Is it possible that the evils done in the name of God have stopped you from giving believers a fair chance here on this forum?

    Edited by robertleva, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 327 by ringo, posted 04-27-2021 8:28 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 330 by jar, posted 04-28-2021 7:15 AM robertleva has responded
     Message 334 by nwr, posted 04-28-2021 10:14 AM robertleva has not yet responded
     Message 347 by ringo, posted 04-28-2021 2:56 PM robertleva has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 33412
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 330 of 382 (885844)
    04-28-2021 7:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 329 by robertleva
    04-28-2021 7:08 AM


    Re: Why Stick Around? My Belief
    Christianity is NOT about getting saved, it's about making this life better for all.

    The Salvation Christianity is the work of Satan.


    My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 329 by robertleva, posted 04-28-2021 7:08 AM robertleva has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 331 by robertleva, posted 04-28-2021 8:21 AM jar has responded

      
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