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Author Topic:   Conversations with God
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 361 of 382 (885911)
04-28-2021 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Phat
04-28-2021 3:49 PM


Re: Why Pressie Became An Atheist
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Yes, the Jesus you made up tells you to avoid the straight and narrow.


Not really.

Yes, really. Literally.

The Jesus in the dusty old book told you what you must do to be saved. The Jesus you made up tells you to scoff at the book.

Phat writes:

He just does not want to give me more than I can handle at the moment.


The widow was told to feed Elijah even though it meant she and her son would die.

Phat writes:

He knows that if He told me to give everything up I would run from Him.


Yes, that's what the rich young ruler did. Jesus didn't change the message to make it more convenient for people who didn't want to do what He said.

Phat writes:

So tell me why Christianity was so empty.
Was it the religion, the history, or the people?


The whole idea of a God is empty. The idea that he would commune with you is emptier.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Phat, posted 04-28-2021 3:49 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Phat, posted 04-29-2021 2:21 AM ringo has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2092
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 362 of 382 (885912)
04-28-2021 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by robertleva
04-28-2021 3:50 PM


Now robertleva wants private messages. Just stop telling untruths everyone could see. Those guys in the Peanut Gallery know when you don't tell the truth...It's all there for everyone to see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by robertleva, posted 04-28-2021 3:50 PM robertleva has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by dwise1, posted 04-29-2021 6:19 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8200
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 363 of 382 (885913)
04-28-2021 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by robertleva
04-28-2021 3:50 PM


robert writes:

Phat if you want to discuss anything feel free to message me.

Another reminder: this is a public debate site, not a place where you come to provide private religious counselling or proselytise without challenge.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by robertleva, posted 04-28-2021 3:50 PM robertleva has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by jar, posted 04-28-2021 5:40 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33412
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 364 of 382 (885915)
04-28-2021 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by Tangle
04-28-2021 4:49 PM


the Get Outta Hell Free Card conjob
Remember that Christians like robertleva seem to have never read the Bible but love to sell the Great Con called Salvation. It's a masterful con with almost no liability during the salesman's lifetime and no chance of product liability claims or charges.

It's a true winner and the only Constitutionally Protected Con that I know of.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by Tangle, posted 04-28-2021 4:49 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5988
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 365 of 382 (885920)
04-28-2021 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Stile
04-28-2021 1:06 PM


Re: Charismatic Chaos Revisited
If you're deciding on a spouse - you should take into account your wishy-washy feelings along with all the other facts and give them a much higher priority than normal.

And no one is disagreeing. Those wishy-washy feelings are a major, you might say near overwhelming, fact that needs to be taken into due consideration at full emotional affect with all the other seemingly mundane considerations of actually putting lives together. The weight given each element, each fact, and its place in the decision hierarchy is a matter for the individual to decide.

But, I submit to you, the decision is being made in a fact-based way. We are talking a fact-based decision model. Or should be if you care to make a more successful decision. As in one that actually works out since it was planned to foster its own success.

As I said previously, if the decision affects nothing important, like people's lives, then a feelings-based decision method is good enough. Anything else should involve more intellect.

And, no, I do not recognize a feelings-based decision method using any facts at all. As soon as some pesky fact (other than the fact that you got the feels) pops up it poisons everything and crushes it down like a black hole into a fact-based method. Instant collapse.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Stile, posted 04-28-2021 1:06 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by Stile, posted 05-04-2021 4:03 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 366 of 382 (885922)
04-29-2021 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by ringo
04-28-2021 4:12 PM


Why Pressie Ringo Became An Atheist
ringo writes:

The whole idea of a God is empty. The idea that he would commune with you is emptier.

Im puzzled why you felt this way. Once I got zapped, I never felt the same since. I feel empty occasionally for other reasons but never anything involving God.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by ringo, posted 04-28-2021 4:12 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by ringo, posted 04-29-2021 10:49 AM Phat has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 367 of 382 (885927)
04-29-2021 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by Pressie
04-28-2021 4:14 PM


Now robertleva wants private messages.

That is such a dishonest dodge.

I want every exchange to be fully public. Wanting to keep such exchanges private is a sure sign of the desire to deceive.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Pressie, posted 04-28-2021 4:14 PM Pressie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Phat, posted 04-29-2021 8:26 AM dwise1 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 368 of 382 (885930)
04-29-2021 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by dwise1
04-29-2021 6:19 AM


dwise1 writes:

I want every exchange to be fully public. Wanting to keep such exchanges private is a sure sign of the desire to deceive.

I have to know somebody for awhile before sending or receiving private messages and upon reflection I think I agree with you here. My one exception to this rule is prayer. I do not share my prayers so casually. And if God (or Whom I believed to be God) had something to share with me, it would be meditated upon in my inner conscience and shared later, after reflection and inner processing. At that point it would be my own thoughts anyway.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by dwise1, posted 04-29-2021 6:19 AM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by dwise1, posted 04-29-2021 1:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 369 of 382 (885939)
04-29-2021 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Phat
04-29-2021 2:21 AM


Re: Why Pressie Ringo Became An Atheist
Phat writes:

Once I got zapped, I never felt the same since.


You were told you should feel that way and you were eager to feel that way.

Feelings are a slippery thing. We can convince ourselves to feel a certain way. But feelings don't determine reality.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Phat, posted 04-29-2021 2:21 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by Phat, posted 04-29-2021 10:20 PM ringo has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 370 of 382 (885944)
04-29-2021 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by Phat
04-29-2021 8:26 AM


Well, for one thing knowing that you have an audience can keep one from blatantly dishonest shenanigans (though not immune to inappropriate drunken posts).

For example there's that local YEC activist I had a 20-year email correspondence with. He was the most pathological liar I have ever encountered. And the most dishonest. As long as he knew that nobody else was watching, he felt free to engage in the worst and most vicious mocking and lying. He was the one who demanded answers to his proselytizing "impossible questions" while being completely unable to answer of my simple questions to him like "What do you mean by that?" BTW, he did not understand his own questions but was just regurgitating them in typical creationist fashion -- for an example, refer to my page, BILL MORGAN'S QUESTION: Should Kids be Taught About God?, which has direct bearing on your own plan to lurk in alleyways near schools in order to accost children with your religion.

If he knew he had an audience, he would have behaved better, but he didn't so he didn't. He did bring in third party "atheist friend", but it was obviously just him wielding a sockpuppet.

The other example is my malicious ex-wife. Even after two decades, the only time she behaves like a normal person is when other people are present so she has to behave in front of them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Phat, posted 04-29-2021 8:26 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 371 of 382 (885959)
04-29-2021 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by ringo
04-29-2021 10:49 AM


Re: Why Pressie Ringo Became An Atheist
Phat writes:

Once I got zapped, I never felt the same since.


ringo writes:

You were told you should feel that way and you were eager to feel that way.

I was only told that Christians had to become born again in order to be genuine. I recall that I never gave it much thought as I thought that I was already "Christian Enough"...having been raised in the religion and having discussed God before. I was never full aware that there was another level until I was in the process of feeling and experiencing that level.

Feelings are a slippery thing. We can convince ourselves to feel a certain way. But feelings don't determine reality.
So you guys have taught me. Actions determine authenticity. But we were taught that actions in and of themselves were simply actions....works, if you will. A good catholic may dutifully make up a bunch of sandwiches to feed the homeless yet not have a clue who GOD was and is apart from the bells, smells, and icons to pray to. Likewise, a "good" Protestant may seek to fit in by whooping, hollering, shouting amen! amen! and running around the building waving a prayer hankie. Yet they may have a God or Jesus in their head unlike the original.

Perhaos a white Jesus. A Conservative Jesus. Or as ringo suggests I have, a nice favoring and generous Jesus Who expects me to be honest and compromising. God forbid I actually had to give it all up! ringo charges me with making Him up. I didnt write the book, however. I believe that even if there were no book, Jesus could and would meet me where I am at. There lies the battle, the demons and the character or lack of same.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by ringo, posted 04-29-2021 10:49 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by nwr, posted 04-29-2021 10:40 PM Phat has responded
 Message 374 by ringo, posted 04-30-2021 11:21 AM Phat has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5790
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 372 of 382 (885960)
04-29-2021 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by Phat
04-29-2021 10:20 PM


Re: Why Pressie Ringo Became An Atheist
ringo charges me with making Him up. I didnt write the book, however.

But that's the whole point. Much of what you believe does not come from the book. It has been spoon fed to you by religious con men.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Phat, posted 04-29-2021 10:20 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by Phat, posted 04-29-2021 11:19 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


(1)
Message 373 of 382 (885961)
04-29-2021 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by nwr
04-29-2021 10:40 PM


Re: Why Pressie Ringo Became An Atheist
Much of what you believe does not come from the book. It has been spoon fed to you by religious con men.
I've thought about this.

First, I know now that I have been exposed to and conned by "religious con men."

I believed in them and in their image,reputation, and seeming integrity. Ravi Zacharias is a great example. At the time, I never questioned his actions..(those which I could even see or hear) and was quite defensive when EvC Members such as jar, ringo, and Theodoric (especially Theodoric) denounced him. As it turned out, I ate a heaping helping of crow once Theodorics accusations became mainstream.

That being said, I never lumped all of the apologists employed by RZIM Ministries (who are planning to change their name, publicly renounce Ravi and rebrand) into the conman pool. The EvC Peanut Gallery is by and large far more skeptical...especially of Christianity in the United States at least. Our Texas Ranger, Jar, has long warned his audience about Biblical Christians (as opposed to traditional Christians of the non-woo and evidence based thinking approach.

You don't speak up very much, but I remember years ago when you would visit jar and myself in chat. Anglagard is another whom thinks similar to you and jar.

Still, I have adopted my beliefs from my intuition. If anything, I am conning myself by doing this and am fully aware that I will be judged by what I do versus what I could have done in this life. One reason that I continue to hang out here at Percys Forum is because I get challenged. And I believe that it has made me stronger in my faith, if one can even weigh such things.

Currently, I stand on several principals.
1) Jeus Christ rose from the dead. The Trinity is a deep yet valid way to frame my belief. There is One God (not many as has been argued) there is (or was) One human character whom was more than simply a prophet or a guru/wiseman type of human. I believe that He was in full Communion with the Creator of all seen and unseen.

We have access to Him (GOD) now because of Jesus, and because the Holy Spirit (Comforter, Teacher, Presence) is here with us on earth. I fault no one here at EvC for thinking or believing differently. I most certainly have not arrived or as yet been Sanctified. As our Forum Guidelines state, The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person. . Feel free to keep challenging me, as I would expect nothing less at EvC.

Edited by Phat, : better worded after sleeping on it.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by nwr, posted 04-29-2021 10:40 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 374 of 382 (885966)
04-30-2021 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by Phat
04-29-2021 10:20 PM


Re: Why Pressie Ringo Became An Atheist
Phat writes:

I was only told that Christians had to become born again in order to be genuine.


I don't believe it. I have hardly ever heard a sermon where they didn't tell you how wonderful and joyous it is to be "saved". The hymns do it too.

Phat writes:

But we were taught that actions in and of themselves were simply actions....works, if you will.


You were taught backwards. Faith is only faith. It is only genuine if it is manifested as actions (James 2).

Phat writes:

ringo charges me with making Him up. I didnt write the book, however.


You don't even believe the book, so your Jesus must be made up.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Phat, posted 04-29-2021 10:20 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by Phat, posted 04-30-2021 12:39 PM ringo has responded
 Message 376 by Phat, posted 04-30-2021 12:52 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 375 of 382 (885968)
04-30-2021 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by ringo
04-30-2021 11:21 AM


Re: Why Pressie Ringo Became An Atheist
ringo writes:

I have hardly ever heard a sermon where they didn't tell you how wonderful and joyous it is to be "saved". The hymns do it too.

I got saved the first month before I ever even learned the buzzwords and catchphrases. Charismatic (Charismaniacal) Christianity became an addiction only after I got saved and after I went from believing about God and Jesus to actually feeling as if I had met them in my inner spirit. The feeling of communion with Him was the prerequisite. I actually avoided spending much time with the Biblical Christians...Charismatics All. Its also why I rarely talked to Faith. I couldn't handle the belief of a young earth and an alternate science. And I felt as if she had too much pride and certainty that she and she alone was right about things. Do I come across the same way? If so I dont see it...but I have an idea that I am at times arrogant.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by ringo, posted 04-30-2021 11:21 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by ringo, posted 04-30-2021 2:37 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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