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Author Topic:   Creation Vs. Evolution = Free will Vs. determinism
jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 164 (127463)
07-25-2004 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Wounded King
07-24-2004 4:54 AM


What is your opinion of fore-ordination? Do you believe that God knows everything that will happen in the future, can God be surprised?
I can think of no better description of Hell than perfect foreknowledge.
IMHO, one of the strongest arguments for Theistic Evolution is that GOD would be bored to death if he knew exactly what would happen. Any such existence would be misery for God and totally futile for man.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Wounded King, posted 07-24-2004 4:54 AM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-25-2004 9:44 PM jar has not replied
 Message 22 by Glordag, posted 07-26-2004 1:28 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 111 of 164 (135218)
08-19-2004 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Syamsu
08-19-2004 9:25 AM


It's not clear to you because you deliberately ignore the wider context of the creation vs evolution controversy. I'm pretty sure you have no idea of how widespread social darwinism was. According to Ute Deichmann's "Biologists under Hitler", biologists in Germany had the biggest percentage of partymembership of the Nazi party of any professional group of which it was measured. Research in the USA shows that atheists are overrepresented in the discipline of biology by more then 10 percent or something, compared to other disciplines.
That's a nice attempt at misdirection and obfuscation.
Actually, Hitlers own words and those of the key people in his government show thatis was not social Darwinism that drove his actions but rather Christian beliefs. In all of his genocidal behaviour, the hatred of Jews, he believed that he was doing GODs work. Even his sterilization efforts to keep unfitts from reproducing were justified in Christian, religious terms and not through social darwinism.
The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life.... The National Government regard the two Christian Confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality. They will respect the agreements concluded between them and the federal States. Their rights are not to be infringed.... It will be the Government's care to maintain honest co-operation between Church and State; the struggle against materialistic views and for a real national community is just as much in the interest of the German nation as in that of the welfare of our Christian faith. The Government of the Reich, who regard Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attach the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See and are endeavouring to develop them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the Reichstag on 23 March 1933
It would have been more to the point, more honest and more Christian, in past decades not to support those who intentionally destroyed healthy life than to rebel against those who have no other wish than to avoid disease. Moreover, a policy of laissez faire in this sphere is not only cruelty to the individual guiltless victims but also to the nation as a whole.... If the Churches were to declare themselves ready to take over the treatment and care of those suffering from hereditary diseases, we should be quite ready to refrain from sterilizing them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 30 Jan. 1934
This is our answer: "My friend, you are wrong. It is true that we are subject to a higher power. We humans may never interfere with the great laws of the Creator. But you are wrong. See the laws the Creator has established for his world and your life. The great law is that life must be able to preserve itself, and that if it cannot, it will collapse. It is the hard, brutal law of the struggle for existence and of selection and extinction. It was the law we saw day by day, hour by hour, under all the clouds of heaven and all the stars of the sky, in which life seemed to find a senseless death, whether plant or animal or person, whether in distant Africa or near us.
That which cannot meet the challenges of life dies, no matter how much pain it causes,
and even if your small understanding or mind cannot comprehend it, these are the great laws of life and of the world that God himself gave us. These are laws, my German friend, that in our crazy fantasies we broke in the past." Dr. Walter Grou October 1934
As you can see, any reference to Natural Selection are not based on Darwin, but on the Christian GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Syamsu, posted 08-19-2004 9:25 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Syamsu, posted 08-19-2004 12:45 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 113 of 164 (135250)
08-19-2004 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Syamsu
08-19-2004 12:45 PM


So you attack the poster? What about the quotes? Would you like more?
I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."
From Mein Kampf.
He said essentially the same thing in a Reichstag speech in 1938.
Syamsu, I am simply reporting what Hitler said. If you wish to debate the issue, provide supporting documented speeches where Hitler says that his policies are Social Darwinism and we will consider them.
This message has been edited by jar, 08-19-2004 12:01 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Syamsu, posted 08-19-2004 12:45 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Syamsu, posted 08-19-2004 1:10 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 116 of 164 (135259)
08-19-2004 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Syamsu
08-19-2004 1:10 PM


Although it is off topic, I will attempt to answer your question. You asserted that what Hitler did was related to Social Darwinism. That is simply an assertion, an unsupported opinion.
What I provided is not an opinion but rather evidence that the readers of this thread can use to form opinions of their own.
I did not say that what Hitler and the Nazis did was based on Christian beliefs...

They Did!


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Syamsu, posted 08-19-2004 1:10 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Syamsu, posted 08-19-2004 1:27 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 120 of 164 (135271)
08-19-2004 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Syamsu
08-19-2004 1:27 PM


Now provide some evidence on the other side.
I beg your pardon?
You were the one asserting that Evolution and Social Darwinism led to the holocaust.
I have never seen any indication tha the TOE leads to genocide. But I have seen evidence that Creationists love to blaim all that is bad in the world on the TOE.
How sad is that?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Syamsu, posted 08-19-2004 1:27 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Syamsu, posted 08-20-2004 12:18 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 123 of 164 (135506)
08-20-2004 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Syamsu
08-20-2004 12:18 AM


I've looked. Can't find any. Lots of assertions, lots of assertions from the Christian fundamentalists, literalists and revisionists, but no evidence.
And I imagine if you could find it, you'd present it.
But Hitler and the leading Nazis words stand.
So once again, find out where Hitler claimed his actions, and the actions of ANY of the Nazis were based on Social Darwinism. Don't think you will. Genocide, like what the US did to the American Indians, like slavery, like the holocaust, were not done in the name of Social Darwinism, but rather in the name of Christianity.
This message has been edited by jar, 08-19-2004 11:42 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Syamsu, posted 08-20-2004 12:18 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Syamsu, posted 08-20-2004 1:01 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 125 of 164 (135518)
08-20-2004 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Syamsu
08-20-2004 1:01 AM


In other words, you have no evidence.
So I'd say it was time for you to retract your assertion and stop making such unfounded assertions.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Syamsu, posted 08-20-2004 1:01 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Syamsu, posted 08-20-2004 1:17 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 128 of 164 (135522)
08-20-2004 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Syamsu
08-20-2004 1:17 AM


No I think I'll just dismiss your opinion as worthless politics.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu
So once again, you are asserting opinion without any evidence to back it up.
Good tactic.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Syamsu, posted 08-20-2004 1:17 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Syamsu, posted 08-20-2004 3:07 AM jar has not replied
 Message 138 by Mammuthus, posted 08-20-2004 3:58 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 146 of 164 (135669)
08-20-2004 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Syamsu
08-20-2004 4:21 AM


The specter of eugenics hovers over virtually all contemporary developments in human genetics. Eugenics was rooted in the social Darwinism of the late 19th century,
Come on Syamsu. How silly can you get?
We are in the early 21st century. The late 19th century held many silly ideas. But beliefs as well as living things evolve.
Do you have a point somewhere?
To say "The specter of eugenics hovers over virtually all contemporary developments in human genetics." is to make a totally unsupported assertion, particularly when the next statement uses as its basis, a reference to an allegation, also unsupported, that such ides were rooted in ideas from the 1800s.
Please provide support that "Eugenics was rooted in the social Darwinism of the late 19th century" or withdraw your assertion.
This time I will hold you to showing some evidence.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Syamsu, posted 08-20-2004 4:21 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Syamsu, posted 08-21-2004 5:18 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 158 of 164 (136126)
08-22-2004 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Syamsu
08-22-2004 9:56 AM


There's already enough evidence to safely conclude dishonesty on the part of Jar and Mammuthus in this thread.
Why is it that Creationists, when faced with evidence that refutes their position, always seem to fall back on attacking the poster?
Is that proof that in Creationism there is no free-will, are they simply determined to attack anyone that cannot blindly accept their unfounded assertions?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Syamsu, posted 08-22-2004 9:56 AM Syamsu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Mammuthus, posted 08-23-2004 5:27 AM jar has not replied

  
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