Slavery

I have a question about the bible in relation to slavery. In the bible it gives rules on how to properly own slaves (dont know the verse). By giving these rules it appears to effectivly give permission for a person to own a slave. In my view the general message of the bible doesnt really agree much with the concept of slavery.I also dont think that god would have allowed slaves back then and not now. My view of the christian god is that he is the sort of being that would make the rules that govern our world as he would want them and not adjust them so that society would agree with them.How is this apparant contradiction in the bible explained?

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Who is wise? He will realize these things.
Who is discerning? He will understand them.
The ways of the LORD are right;
the righteous walk in them,
but the rebellious stumble in them.(Hos. 14)

Referring to this concept of what is "right" and proper...slavery is of course not humane, but for the time it was in vogue, God dealt with mankind where mankind was at. Obviously humanity has NEVER lived up to Gods implied standards...we are simply incapable of doing so. In modern society, one could assume that God is not approving of the wealth gathering of the Western powers. God is not the one making the decisions, however. Humans make the decisions. By default, we will NEVER be as gods ourselves...to the point where we will properly govern a utopian society. It siomply goes against the grain of Biblical philosophy. Bottem line: Quit trying without God and quit trying WITH God. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and rely not on your own understanding.

There is no one place in the Bible that deals with slavery. Rather there are a large number of places that deal with specific instances and many more that deal with the generalities.There were different rules governing the practice that varied from what we would describe as indentured servantude to outright slavery. There were also differing rules for men and women.IMHO it's necessary to understand that the Bible was written by men, in the idom of their day, subject to all of the predudices, knowledge base, social customs and limitations of that era, and meant to be read by their contemporary peers.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Hello, monkeysfighting, and welcome to EvC. Fun name you chose, by the way.

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I have a question about the bible in relation to slavery. In the bible it gives rules on how to properly own slaves (dont know the verse).

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In my opinion, it would make a stronger post if you would find examples of these kinds of verses and cite them. Otherwise, it makes it seem as if you simply saying, "I heard that in the Bible...." We get a little touchy when creationists say something like that concerning evolution, so I see no reason to let non-creationists get away with it as well. But, then, I've been guilty of the same.-

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My view of the christian god....

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Ah, I see the problem. Maybe your view of the Christian god is wrong? Why don't you think it's right to own slaves? Maybe slavery is perfectly acceptable, and it is our current society that is being unreasonable in condemning the practice without exception.Just something to think about.

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Referring to this concept of what is "right" and proper...slavery is of course not humane, but for the time it was in vogue, God dealt with mankind where mankind was at.

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That makes little sense - first it implies that God was restricted by the actions of the human race and secondly it also suggests that God was in error when he caused the flood - as surely their behaviour was "in vogue" for the time.

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God is not the one making the decisions, however.

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Which suggests there are bit in the bible that God does not want? Which is it? Does God give rules on how to keep slaves or do they come from man? And if it's man - then isn't that evidence that the bible is a construct of him rather than god?This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 05-Aug-2005 02:26 PMThis message has been edited by Charles Knight, 05-Aug-2005 02:27 PMThis message has been edited by Charles Knight, 05-Aug-2005 02:29 PM

Dueteronomy 15:12-18 is one example of the proper rules to conduct yourself by when owning slaves. I cannot find the one the way to treat a slave.

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Ah, I see the problem. Maybe your view of the Christian god is wrong? Why don't you think it's right to own slaves? Maybe slavery is perfectly acceptable, and it is our current society that is being unreasonable in condemning the practice without exception.

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slavery is one form of someone using their wealth at others expense. Look at Mark10:17-31 the parable of the rich young man. It explains how if money rules your life then you will not be allowed into heaven.

Many good points here, but I do not think we can grasp the full concept of slavery.I understand what Charles is saying, he's saying if God existed, then he should have gave better rules, or abolished slavery all together.And Chrioptera with the sarcastic remark about "we might have it wrong, and slavery is actually right"Well slavery still goes on in the world today. Examples:
injusticeline.com - This website is for sale! - injusticeline Resources and Information.
http://www.iabolish.com/slavery_today.htm
I do not feel this is a result of God, as much as it is the fault of man. Maybe you can go to those places in the world that still have slavery to get a better understanding of it, but I might expect to be killed in areas of the world like that, or taken as a slave myself.
Part of the work I do as Vice President of a Charity org, is to go into parts of the world like that, and show them a better way through Christ (or at least the love of Christ without even mentioning Christ), and help build safe enviroments for the children to grow up in. People in this forum, are actually calling me an exploiter for doing that, I guess they think slavery should still exist, and the children should be left for dead, starve, and fight other peoples wars. But if it wasn't for Christ showing us a better way 2000 years ago, who knows how we would be now.You see, put yourself in a time machine and go back to those times, and you might get a better idea of why, why, why. Those rules in the bible were for man at the stage in life that he was at. Maybe if God would have changed things to drastically, then man would have never followed. I think those rules were a stepping stone to the new ways proposed by Jesus.We also have no clue as to the intelligence of the slaves back then, maybe they couldn't even exist without the help of being a slave. Maybe even some people were perfectly content being a slave, who knows? It doesn't sound good to us now, since we have the ability to self sustain ourselves.
But when I read a verse like this one:

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Exodus 21:20-22

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20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

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22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [a] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.

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I just start to realize, that I really don't understand the ways of the world back then, or why God chose to do the things he did. When looking for God, I decided to focus more on the NT, and the teachings of Jesus, since I believe this is how God wants us to act now.Fast foward the world 5000 years, and people may look back at our current work enviroments, and consider it cruel and unusual, and read the current labor rules and regs, and say, "what the heck?" or "Daddy what is manual labor?"My worker once worked as a painter for an airline. They sent their workers for physicals every year. Well one year he failed his lung test, and they laid him off, and said your lungs are no longer good, because of all the paint you've inhaled working for us. then they gave him $30,000, which wasn't even enough to cover all his bills once he was all said and done. Then he was just left out to dry. He lost everything.I can look at a story like that and say, he was a slave to that airline, or to the ways of the world. 5000 years from now, I am sure this will considered barbaric.It's all relative.

He might have fared better if he had actually been a slave owned by the airline, as the airline would have been obligated to take care of him to the end of his life that way.

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I do not feel this is a result of God, as much as it is the fault of man.

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So, are the rules about slavery in the Bible from God or not?

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Part of the work I do as Vice President of a Charity org, is to go into parts of the world like that, and show them a better way through Christ (or at least the love of Christ without even mentioning Christ), and help build safe enviroments for the children to grow up in. People in this forum, are actually calling me an exploiter for doing that,

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If you evangelize to people while you are helping them, then you are exploiting them and are participating in the destruction of their own existing religion and culture.Help them with food, shelter, and clothing, yes, that is considered help."Help" them by trying to convert them to your religion and turn them away from their own religion, no, that is not considered help. That is exploiting and interfering in the existing religious beliefs of others.Let's say that you live in some very poor, rural part of some country, and along comes a Buddhist charity organization to help your remote village, where you have all been Christian for as long as you can remember. They stay for a couple of years, building a school, get people medical and dental care, digging a well, helping your village become self-sustaining again. All the while they have been talking about Buddha and Buddhism to everyone, especially to the children. They set up a meditation room and a shrine and start to teach people to chant and meditate, and generally promote Buddhism as the way to peace and happiness. Many of the children and young adults leave Jesus behind in favor of the Buddha, and in several generations pretty much everyone in the village is a Bhuddist rather than Christian as it once was.Would this be OK by you?

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I guess they think slavery should still exist, and the children should be left for dead, starve, and fight other peoples wars.

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Oh, yes, that's exactly what we think. We all hate that children live and we want as much suffering and starvation as possible for them.Please. When you are done erecting strawmen, let me know.

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You see, put yourself in a time machine and go back to those times, and you might get a better idea of why, why, why. Those rules in the bible were for man at the stage in life that he was at.

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So, God couldn't change man? God's morals change as man's changes?So, why did God destroy the world with the Flood? Wasn't man just at a particular stage?

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Maybe if God would have changed things to drastically, then man would have never followed. I think those rules were a stepping stone to the new ways proposed by Jesus.

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So, God couldn't change man? God's morals change as man's changes?

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We also have no clue as to the intelligence of the slaves back then, maybe they couldn't even exist without the help of being a slave.

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Excuse me?What is that supposed to mean?That people were enslaved because they were dumber than their masters?Do you believe that African people are dumber than Europeans?

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Maybe even some people were perfectly content being a slave, who knows?

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Yeah, sure, it was probably a lot of fun.

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I can look at a story like that and say, he was a slave to that airline

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No, he wasn't. The airline did not own him as chattel.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-09-2005 09:25 AM

But God’s Book instructs His followers to take slaves, and gives details about what you can and cannot do with them, or are you saying that these particular verses do not come from God?Leviticus 25:44-46: 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.They will become your property, God’s word clearly promotes slavery.My personal favourite is the one you posted:Exodus 21:20-21 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.You can beat the crap put of another human being as long as it isn’t fatal!Yahweh the merciless be praised! What a loving God, how can anyone find fault with the big guy?Of course, God didn’t really mean this did He, we must be misunderstanding the text? A better way than what, than the culture that a people have lived in for thousands of years? What makes you think that the Christ Way is a better way than the way they have? Surely you can do that without preaching your myths, or do you only do it to promote Christianity? Have you ever done a good deed out of the kindness of your heart rather than the hope of some golden handshake when you die? Well, you undoubtedly are, as were all the thousands of missionaries who spread the word before you. As were all the Christians who have wiped out countless cultures around the world as they promoted their own fairy tales above those of weaker people, it is utterly disgusting. Of course we don’t, but certain people cannot help others simply out of love, they always need to bring their myths into it. What’s wrong with helping someone and not mentioning Jesus, is it possible for you to do that? If it wasn’t for Jesus, or to be more accurate, His followers, the world would not have had such a bloody past. What you are saying here is that man is more powerful than God. Maybe if God has a crumb of decency He would have made a better job of His creation? So, God starts off in the Bible as a barbaric warmonger, and becomes this fluffy little Jesus character in the NT, what is the point in that? Good God man, what a horrible thing to say!People were slaves because they were unintelligent!It makes me wonder why Jesus wasn’t a slave then because he was as thick as two short planks. I mean Jesus was so silly he thought he was a god, surely a good reason to put him in the slave house, the poor guy really needed looking after. You mean instead of living their lives in peace, they were really happy that the Israelites came along and killed most of their family and friends and then took them as slaves, yes I bet they were eternally grateful.Deuteronomy 20:10-15 10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. How can anyone not be grateful? Why not just accept that if there is a God and it happens to be the God of the Old testament then that God is a barbarian, what’s the problem? So, you do not believe that Yahweh is the God of the NT?Brian.

This is a very good question. There are obvious contradictions between the OT and the NT. This is particularly true in the area of violence. The Anabaptists taught that there is "progressive revelation" in the Bible, that is, that the OT contains revelation for people where they were at the time, the NT contains further revelation for people of that time (and us). Thus the NT takes some precedence over the OT where there appears to be some disagreement. There is also teaching in the NT itself that Jewish Law doesn't have to be followed by non Jewish Christians, with some exceptions to avoid offending Jewish Christians.The Anabaptists also generally took stances against slavery even though it was not expressly forbidden in the NT. Probably they based this teaching on "Love your neighbor as yourself" but I am not sure of that.

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And Chrioptera with the sarcastic remark about "we might have it wrong, and slavery is actually right"

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Sarcastic? I'm hurt.

Could it not be that those rules were laid down by the people that made them and had nothing to do with God? The Lord God could refer to the ruler of the people. As with Egyptians the Pharaoh was a living God. Can you not see that those rules were made by people so that they would know what was right or not in that society??? People in medieval times called Nobles Lord. Yes my Lord how may I assist you? Yes my Lord right away my Lord. Thank you my Lord...The bible through its different versions either names Yahweh, Lord or God, depends on which version the story is from. From my study, I have found out there are 4 different versions that were redacted together. Two of them are the main stories and two are minor.

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"A Dwarf on a Giants Shoulder sees the Furthest of the Two!"