Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 75 (8963 total)
268 online now:
GDR, Hyroglyphx, jar, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat), ringo, Tangle, Taq, Theodoric (9 members, 259 visitors)
Newest Member: Samuel567
Upcoming Birthdays: CosmicChimp
Post Volume: Total: 870,836 Year: 2,584/23,288 Month: 775/1,809 Week: 207/225 Day: 20/46 Hour: 3/9


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Educated versus Popular Religion
Swift
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 43 (178354)
01-18-2005 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by robinrohan
01-10-2005 1:30 AM


Re: Specifics about PR
It sounds to me that you are making an attack on Christianity. I thoght this was supose to discuss religons but not put them down. As one person said to me "I see that you smoke. Fair warning I chew. You dont blow no smoke on me and I wont spit on you". And it seems that that is the only religon you have attacked.

ps:I dont believe in the pope having power or being ordained by God cause it says nothing about it in the Bible. At least you got that one right.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by robinrohan, posted 01-10-2005 1:30 AM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by robinrohan, posted 01-19-2005 12:14 AM Swift has not yet responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 43 (178413)
01-19-2005 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Swift
01-18-2005 9:34 PM


Re: Specifics about PR
Swift writes:

It sounds to me that you are making an attack on Christianity

The purpose of this topic was not to attack Christianity or any other religion. Its purpose was to tell people, if they did not know, that there is such a thing as ER in the Western tradition. Most of my examples come from Christianity because I know more about it than the other two religions, although the belief in PR which takes all the Bible literally would also apply to Judaism as regards what Christians call the Old Testament.

I'm saying that ER is more "accurate" than PR, by which I mean that the doctrines are "truer" in the sense that such doctrines as ER has is more in keeping with the sort of evidence that religion is based on.

Western ER is based on the evidence of private experience--not somebody's unique private experience, but the private experiences that we all share, the experience of mind, conscience, and free will.

In my opinion, that is the evidence of religion.

If you want facts you go to science. If you want meaning, you go to religion. You can also go to the local bar, of course, which can be religious in its own way. (The meaning at the local bar is that there is no meaning. But when two or three come together at the local bar in the name of Nothing, then Nothing is with them. So saith their patron saint, Ernest Hemingway).

PR at its sincere core is the same as ER, but also has all sorts of absurdities attached to it which are the result of a lack of religious education. But as I said before, religion is not just for the educated but for everyone, so PR is a natural phenomenon.

To be frank, to ER the Christ story is MYTHOS, not LOGOS, which means that it is a story meant to illustrate an idea but which is not meant to be taken literally. But of course, the "Christ story" is not to be confused with the historical life of Jesus. The same can be said for the story of Mohammed or Moses.

This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-19-2005 00:20 AM

This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-19-2005 00:24 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Swift, posted 01-18-2005 9:34 PM Swift has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by robinrohan, posted 01-21-2005 5:44 PM robinrohan has not yet responded
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 01-22-2005 7:22 AM robinrohan has responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 43 (179415)
01-21-2005 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by robinrohan
01-19-2005 12:14 AM


Re: Specifics about PR
I'm wondering if someone can tell me (Ifen, GreyOwl) how the idea of reincarnation is viewed by Eastern ER.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by robinrohan, posted 01-19-2005 12:14 AM robinrohan has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by lfen, posted 01-21-2005 11:22 PM robinrohan has responded

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 3089 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 34 of 43 (179499)
01-21-2005 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by robinrohan
01-21-2005 5:44 PM


Reincarnation
There is no single view point. The first thing that comes to mind is an analogy from Buddhism. You take a burning candle as it is about to burn out you use it to light another candle. The flame of the second candle can't be said to be the first flame and yet it clearly came from it and is in some sense a continuation of it.

I don't have a good grasp of the idea of karma and reincarnation and the two go together. The notion of cause and effect continuing. The idea as I undestand it is that as long as consciousness is identified with the phenomenal world it will experience the cycles of pain pleasure, becoming and ending, samsara. When it awakens to it's real nature it realizes it was never phenomena and never subjected to birth and death or suffering.

Is there something more specific you were looking for?

lfen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by robinrohan, posted 01-21-2005 5:44 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by robinrohan, posted 01-24-2005 2:52 PM lfen has responded

  
Clark
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 43 (179544)
01-22-2005 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
01-06-2005 1:55 PM


Educated Religion and Science Discussion
Hi robin,

Thought you might find this discussion on NPR interesting. It's a discussion among some educated religionists (theologians and philsophers and scientists, Nobel winner included)

and at least 1 PR adding something to the discussion on the phone.

quote:
Where did the universe come from -- and where is it going? Some people find answers to such questions in scientific theories, while others look to religion for answers.

http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2005/Jan/hour1_012105.html

http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2005/Jan/hour2_012105.html

good stuff. enjoy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 01-06-2005 1:55 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by robinrohan, posted 01-24-2005 2:51 PM Clark has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13679
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 43 (179575)
01-22-2005 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by robinrohan
01-19-2005 12:14 AM


Re: Specifics about PR
robinrohan writes:

If you want facts you go to science. If you want meaning, you go to religion. You can also go to the local bar, of course, which can be religious in its own way. (The meaning at the local bar is that there is no meaning. But when two or three come together at the local bar in the name of Nothing, then Nothing is with them. So saith their patron saint, Ernest Hemingway).

PR at its sincere core is the same as ER, but also has all sorts of absurdities attached to it which are the result of a lack of religious education. But as I said before, religion is not just for the educated but for everyone, so PR is a natural phenomenon.

To be frank, to ER the Christ story is MYTHOS, not LOGOS, which means that it is a story meant to illustrate an idea but which is not meant to be taken literally. But of course, the "Christ story" is not to be confused with the historical life of Jesus. The same can be said for the story of Mohammed or Moses.


I came back because I saw this nominated as a POTM.
You have a way with words, but when two or three are gathered together in the name of education, is this not ER? Conversely, if two or three are gathered together to experience a living personality, is this MYTHOS if that personality truly lives? I am espousing PR here. LOGOS is based on a living personality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by robinrohan, posted 01-19-2005 12:14 AM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by lfen, posted 01-22-2005 7:36 AM Phat has responded
 Message 43 by robinrohan, posted 01-24-2005 3:36 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 3089 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 37 of 43 (179580)
01-22-2005 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
01-22-2005 7:22 AM


Re: Specifics about PR
Conversely, if two or three are gathered together to experience a living personality, is this MYTHOS if that personality truly lives? I am espousing PR here.

Krishna lives! or as the button in the 60's said, "Frodo Lives", yes. But remember the ego is a fictional construct. Your personality lives in the same sense Hamlet lives. And who is the actor playing the role?

lfen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 01-22-2005 7:22 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 01-22-2005 12:28 PM lfen has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13679
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 43 (179649)
01-22-2005 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by lfen
01-22-2005 7:36 AM


Re: Specifics about PR
Ifen writes:

And who is the actor playing the role?

This is why absolutism never works. Relativists can sit and agree together, content that the agreement is relative to each of them. No personality need be the boss or have the final say...be it one of them or a Deity. Jesus,(whom I believe to be living) may reach them, yet in a manner of belief relative to the individual. Absolutists, on the other hand, not only insist that the Deity is the sole source of authority but that the interpretation of the authority is indisputable and absolute. This is fine up to the point where the absolutist insists on representing the Deity for the benefit of everyone. They are but an actor playing the role of God. I find myself guilty of this at times, but how do I communicate an absolute truth without becoming an absolute idiot?

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-22-2005 10:32 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by lfen, posted 01-22-2005 7:36 AM lfen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by lfen, posted 01-22-2005 12:43 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 3089 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 39 of 43 (179654)
01-22-2005 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
01-22-2005 12:28 PM


Re: Specifics about PR
how do I communicate an absolute truth without becoming an absolute idiot?

This is an archetype especially found in the East but I think also in the West. The holy fool. Lao Tzu is often depicted as such an empty fool, whose foolishness is the highest wisdom.

lfen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 01-22-2005 12:28 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 43 (180260)
01-24-2005 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Clark
01-22-2005 2:33 AM


Re: Educated Religion and Science Discussion
Thanks, Jamska. I'll study it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Clark, posted 01-22-2005 2:33 AM Clark has not yet responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 43 (180261)
01-24-2005 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by lfen
01-21-2005 11:22 PM


Re: Reincarnation
Ifen, I was just wondering how literally they took it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by lfen, posted 01-21-2005 11:22 PM lfen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by lfen, posted 01-24-2005 3:04 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 3089 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 42 of 43 (180262)
01-24-2005 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by robinrohan
01-24-2005 2:52 PM


Re: Reincarnation
Well the popular side of it takes it very literally. But moving into inner teachings is very different. The philosophical explanations are hard for me to follow but it's not literal. I know that much.

lfen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by robinrohan, posted 01-24-2005 2:52 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 43 (180267)
01-24-2005 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
01-22-2005 7:22 AM


Re: Specifics about PR
Phatboy writes:

Conversely, if two or three are gathered together to experience a living personality, is this MYTHOS if that personality truly lives?

No, that would be Logos--a literal description of reality.

I thought you might be wondering, if you are at all interested, what's left to Christian ER when all these PR beliefs I have mentioned are left out.

In my opinion, what's left are the essentials. Private experience tells us that we have minds, conscience, and free will. It tells us that our ego or self is at odds with our conscience, since it is the very nature of the self to be selfish. So we experience guilt. Our private experience also invades our hearts with the idea that there is a great deal of physical suffering and sorrow in the world, that, in fact, suffering and death are universal. This is a horrible fact, but true.

Christian ER tells us that somehow or another, we are responsible for this suffering down through the ages of beings--for the tortured, the mutilated, the abandoned, the mocked, the unloved. At the bottom of our consciousness is this terrible notion of some "infinitely gentle, infinitely suffering thing"--and the mythos of the Christ story is meant to convey that suffering powerfully, as indeed it does.

But the very fact that we feel this guilt tells us that there is something beyond which allows us to know such things, for we have never known any world but this. We have nothing to compare our world to, and yet we do compare it to something or other that is beyond our experience. This ideal that we somehow know about is REALITY.

In this REALITY lies MEANING--the meaning of all this suffering for which we are responsible--and the meaning of death.

By this view, all these ideas that PR gets so worked up about don't matter--whether the Bible is "divinely inspired" or not, whether Mary was a virgin, whether there are such things as miracles, how old the earth is, whether or not we evolved, and so on--none of it matters in the least.

This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-24-2005 16:07 AM

This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-24-2005 20:33 AM


The dragon is by the side of the road, watching those who pass. Beware lest he devour you. We go to the Father of Souls but it is necessary to pass by the dragon.--Cyril of Jerusalem

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 01-22-2005 7:22 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020