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Author Topic:   homosexuality and the Bible
A_Christian
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 183 (52210)
08-25-2003 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Dan Carroll
08-25-2003 6:04 PM


She is a lesbian because she chooses to have sex with other
girls. Why her parents beat her for playing dress-up with friends
sounds like an urban legend to me... Hey, but who am I---just a
Christian----I don't know anything and I'm illogical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-25-2003 6:04 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by crashfrog, posted 08-25-2003 6:30 PM A_Christian has taken no action
 Message 168 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-25-2003 6:30 PM A_Christian has taken no action
 Message 171 by DC85, posted 08-26-2003 7:46 PM A_Christian has taken no action

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 697 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 167 of 183 (52211)
08-25-2003 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by A_Christian
08-25-2003 6:22 PM


She is a lesbian because she chooses to have sex with other
girls.

Why would she do that, though, unless she was sexually attracted to women?

Yes, the homosexual behavior is a personal choice. But the preference for the behavior - the sexual preference - is not. It's biology.

Why would God make people for whom the idea of having sex with members of the opposite gender is as repellant as homosexual sex must be for you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by A_Christian, posted 08-25-2003 6:22 PM A_Christian has taken no action

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 183 (52212)
08-25-2003 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by A_Christian
08-25-2003 6:22 PM


quote:
She is a lesbian because she chooses to have sex with other
girls.

And horrific beatings throughout her childhood did nothing to change that. Does that not tip you off to anything?

quote:
Why her parents beat her for playing dress-up with friends
sounds like an urban legend to me...

Just so we can be clear then, you're calling me a liar.

quote:
I don't know anything and I'm illogical.

Glad we got that settled.

[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 08-25-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by A_Christian, posted 08-25-2003 6:22 PM A_Christian has taken no action

Agent Uranium [GPC]
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 183 (52236)
08-25-2003 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by crashfrog
08-25-2003 4:36 PM


Vinegar Stroke = That last stroke which results in a fountainous eruption. Fulfilling your sin of "digital" pollution.

------------------

quote:
All the boys think she's a spy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by crashfrog, posted 08-25-2003 4:36 PM crashfrog has taken no action

Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 5705 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 170 of 183 (52267)
08-26-2003 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by A_Christian
08-25-2003 1:33 PM


quote:
Not silly, if one reads the Bible and believes it to be the inspired
written word of GOD.

But pretty silly if one reads the bible thinks it is a nice myth (though pretty boring compared to some others) and does not believe in god(s).

quote:
It would be silly if you suggested that
atheists and agnostics count only if they never attend church.

I don't think I suggested this was a requirement of atheists and agnostics..if I did, it was a goof.

quote:
I am glad you and your wife are presently happy

Thanks

quote:
it will be of small counsolation when bad times come (and they always do) and
the end draws near (and it will).

Why small consolation? We have been through bad times and it makes it much easier to get through together than alone...and in the end, even if it were today, I could look back on having had a great time with a woman I care for more than anyone and respect...don't see the problem with that....I am not so weak that I can only get through the day making some mythical being more important than the people around me in my life or by saying this world sucks..can't wait for the afterlife...that to me is a waste of time.

quote:
I'll still have joy because I have hope, I have something to
look forward to----even at deaths door...

Hmmm strange..I have joy and hope but I am an atheist and I have a lot I am looking forward to...even death is not particularly scary...I will just get recycled into the earth..so I will be hanging around one way or another

Your life must really suck if you spend so much time dreaming about the afterlife...

[This message has been edited by Mammuthus, 08-26-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by A_Christian, posted 08-25-2003 1:33 PM A_Christian has taken no action

DC85
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 171 of 183 (52393)
08-26-2003 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by A_Christian
08-25-2003 6:22 PM


man just pretend I am not here. oh thats Right! you have been

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by A_Christian, posted 08-25-2003 6:22 PM A_Christian has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by AdminBrian, posted 08-26-2003 7:54 PM DC85 has taken no action

AdminBrian
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 183 (52394)
08-26-2003 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by DC85
08-26-2003 7:46 PM


For this and other violations of the forum rules A_Christian is having a break from posting.

Whether he returns depends on his agreeing to abide by the rules.

AdminBrian


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by DC85, posted 08-26-2003 7:46 PM DC85 has taken no action

truthlover
Member (Idle past 3289 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 173 of 183 (52438)
08-27-2003 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Mammuthus
08-25-2003 11:40 AM



"A_Christian" writes:

and we define "Christian" as those who regularly attended evangelical Bible churches, you might see a shift

Why cut out the rest of the Christians? By that criteria why not skew the data by only including christians that once owned chihuaha's and like Jerry Lewis movies?

The reason for cutting out the rest of the Christians is because A_Christian is an evangelical, and he wants to compare his brand of Christian with the atheists and agnostics. That seems fair to me. Why would he want to compare numbers if he has to include people he disagrees with on his side?

However, if memory serves, a trip to www.barna.org will establish that his suggestion actually skews the statistics against him, not for him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Mammuthus, posted 08-25-2003 11:40 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by truthlover, posted 08-27-2003 12:34 AM truthlover has taken no action
 Message 175 by Mammuthus, posted 08-27-2003 4:15 AM truthlover has taken no action

truthlover
Member (Idle past 3289 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 174 of 183 (52442)
08-27-2003 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by truthlover
08-27-2003 12:23 AM


Yepper.

Here Barna says, "Born again adults are more likely to experience a divorce than are non-born again adults (27% vs. 24%)." It was #1 of his 7 most discouraging results listed on Dec. 12, 2000.

Here the title is "Born Again Adults Less Likely to Co-habit, Just as Likely to Divorce."

Barna has some pretty stringent requirements to be considered born again. On that second page he gives the requirement: "'Born again Christians' were defined in these surveys as people who said they have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life today and who also indicated they believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they had confessed their sins and had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior. Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as 'born again' or if they considered themselves to be 'born again.'"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by truthlover, posted 08-27-2003 12:23 AM truthlover has taken no action

Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 5705 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 175 of 183 (52456)
08-27-2003 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by truthlover
08-27-2003 12:23 AM


Hi truthlover,
I was sort of baiting him as I know why he wants to cut out other Christians from his definition. Over the last year I have run into a number of people like AC who claim they are true Christians and all others are not. The usual justification for this beleif is they know they are right...I get the impression if these sects were the only people left in the world they would still end up in an earth threatening conflict because they just don't seem to be capable of getting along peacefully with anyone else.

Thanks for the link...it seems that fundamentalism is not a sure way of producing long lasting marriage

cheers,
M


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by truthlover, posted 08-27-2003 12:23 AM truthlover has taken no action

Raha
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 183 (52912)
08-29-2003 8:20 PM


Homosexuals and transexuals
I apologize if this post will sound too off-topic...

But it intrigues me for some time. I also think there is something like gene for homosexuality or something like that. In any case, people are born as homo- or heterosexuals. This fact was, according to my opinion, well proven already. But what about transexuals? How can anybody be born thinking he is female in male body or vice versa? Is it possible that when somebody realizes that he/she is attracted to the same sex too soon, before he/she can fully grasp it, he/she subconsciously comes to conclusion that his/her sex is not what it seems. If this is the case, what is the ethics of all those operations? This is something I have absolutely no opinion so far (lack of information).

------------------
Life has no meaning but itself.


Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by crashfrog, posted 08-31-2003 12:42 AM Raha has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 697 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 177 of 183 (53031)
08-31-2003 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Raha
08-29-2003 8:20 PM


How can anybody be born thinking he is female in male body or vice versa?

Because gender isn't just plumbing. Your body has a gender, and your brain does, too. Generally they're both determined by the same factor in utero, as far as I understand. But they aren't always determined the same way. Ergo, one winds up with a female-structured brain in a male-structured body, or vice-versa. (Actual biologists can step in at any time, here.

If this is the case, what is the ethics of all those operations?

The same as any operation one might choose to undergo in order to bring one's body in line with one's expectations of their body. I.e. the same as having breast augmentation surgery, or a nose job.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Raha, posted 08-29-2003 8:20 PM Raha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Raha, posted 09-01-2003 9:20 AM crashfrog has replied

Raha
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 183 (53185)
09-01-2003 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by crashfrog
08-31-2003 12:42 AM


Your body has a gender, and your brain does, too...

Is it established fact? Some hints where can I learn more?

The same as any operation one might choose to undergo in order to bring one's body in line with one's expectations of their body

Well, I do not think it is that simple. Quite often somebody requires operation which actually harms his/her body, because it is his/her mind which is not OK. Some of those monstrous breast operation are the best example of this. In my opinion they should be denied by physicians. But of course - operations of this kind are good business and sometimes it is much easier to make some "adjustment" to the body then cure the mind (or change the fashion!). So I think that every operation that harms body and brings nothing but illusion is highly unethical.
So if you are right and "brain has gender", than it is OK. If not, than no.

P.S.: I know, of course, that man's brain works rather differently than woman's. But is it enough for anybody to think of himself of man or woman?
------------------
Life has no meaning but itself.

[This message has been edited by Raha, 09-01-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by crashfrog, posted 08-31-2003 12:42 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by crashfrog, posted 09-01-2003 9:24 AM Raha has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 697 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 179 of 183 (53187)
09-01-2003 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Raha
09-01-2003 9:20 AM


Is it established fact? Some hints where can I learn more?

I'll try and find some articles, later today. But the research seems to be pretty clear that there's non-trivial structural differences between the brains of men and women.

Quite often somebody requires operation which actually harms his/her body, because it is his/her mind which is not OK.

Well, yes. It wasn't my intent to sweepingly condone breast augmentation (for instance) but rather to say that sex-reassignment surgery probably isn't any better or worse, morally. Needless surgery is best avoided, I think. On the other hand the patient themselves may very well have a need for the surgery, which they see as correcting something they were born with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Raha, posted 09-01-2003 9:20 AM Raha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Raha, posted 09-01-2003 9:40 AM crashfrog has replied

Raha
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 183 (53192)
09-01-2003 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by crashfrog
09-01-2003 9:24 AM


But the research seems to be pretty clear that there's non-trivial structural differences between the brains of men and women.

Hell, you were too quick! I've just edited my previous post. I know that, of course. But the question is whether those structural differences really define one's gender.

On the other hand the patient themselves may very well have a need for the surgery, which they see as correcting something they were born with.

It is definitely like blessing for many of them, but the source of many problems as well - dependence on artificial hormones and reintegration into society are just two of them. So I am just not sure whether surgery is the best possible solution.

------------------
Life has no meaning but itself.

[This message has been edited by Raha, 09-01-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by crashfrog, posted 09-01-2003 9:24 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by crashfrog, posted 09-01-2003 9:44 AM Raha has taken no action

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