homosexuality and the Bible

messenjaH,There is a PROVEN genetic link to homosexuality. It is not up for discussion. Separated identical twins that have one individual homosexual, have a higher than average chance of them both being homosexual than would be expected by chance. The question is; why aren't they always both homosexual? The answer is that something in the environment triggers homosexuality, but it is much more likely to do it in genetically predisposed individuals.Mark------------------
"I can't prove creationism, but they can't prove evolution. It is [also] a religion, so it should not be taught....Christians took over the school board and voted in creationism. That can be done in any school district anywhere, and it ought to be done." Says Kent "consistent" Hovind in "Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 6."

sure.
I'm just glad people dont think that about evolution.....
(sarcasm OFF)------------------
"I believe in christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."-C.S. Lewisholla at me for any reason at: messenjahjr@yahoo.com

I just dont understand how its a proven fact when I offered alternative possibilities. I think I'll be able to maintain my confusion too. heh..------------------
"I believe in christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."-C.S. Lewisholla at me for any reason at: messenjahjr@yahoo.com

Rrhain:Sorry, but the guy was 40 something and I was 19. I wouldn't date
a girl 10 years younger then myself. He was "mature" and I was
a kid. I do not agree with you. There are supposed "straight"
guys who like to watch 2 girls. Sorry again, but there is something
very wrong with that.We had a guy who was caught fooling with an area dairy cow. I guess
that if he married the cow, then it would be OK? Do you believe
that satan exists? If you do, wouldn't he attack a person at their
weakest link? There is simply too much graphic sex today, even the
Song of Soloman was not read by men under 30 according to Jewish
tradition.Actually, I used "Germany" but you did pick up on the inference
without a problem. Perhaps it is too good an example?

messenjah,What is so hard to understand? Identical twins are GENETICALLY IDENTICAL. Identical twins that are separated at birth are more likely to both be gay than if they weren't identical. There is a clear & unequivocal link between their genetic identicality & homosexuality. Therefore there is a genetic link to homosexuality.Their friends, guardians, experiences, even countries are different, ie. their environments are different, therefore there is more than their environment that is making them gay. That's the genetic identicality bit, right?Mark------------------
"I can't prove creationism, but they can't prove evolution. It is [also] a religion, so it should not be taught....Christians took over the school board and voted in creationism. That can be done in any school district anywhere, and it ought to be done." Says Kent "consistent" Hovind in "Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 6."

A_Christian responds to me:

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Sorry, but the guy was 40 something and I was 19. I wouldn't date
a girl 10 years younger then myself.

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What does that have to do with anything? You were both adults. The words you were looking for were, "No thanks."

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He was "mature" and I was
a kid.

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You were not a kid. You were an adult. That's why the government lets you do things like vote. And when it comes to sex, at 19 you are above the age of consent in all states. For you to whine that the big, bad, mean man made a pass at you is disingenuous at best.That you panicked is pathetic. What did you think he was going to do? Rape you?

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I do not agree with you.

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Doesn't matter. Reality is not beholden to what you wish.

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There are supposed "straight"
guys who like to watch 2 girls. Sorry again, but there is something
very wrong with that.

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Why? What harm does it cause? Be careful, here, do not assume that you know what it is best for their immortal souls. I'm look for concrete, observable changes. Will it cause stocks to fall? Will anybody die? Will famine strike the land?What, specifically, will happen when two people of the same sex have sex?And why on earth do you care when you're not around to be involved?

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We had a guy who was caught fooling with an area dairy cow. I guess
that if he married the cow, then it would be OK?

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Of course, that makes sense. After all, cows are perfectly capable of granting consent. Why, all you have to do is ask the cow, "Wanna go back to the pen and fool around?"Why is it some people can't discuss gay people without bringing up bestiality, rape, pederasty, or marrying cars? What is it about two consenting adults engaging in mutually pleasureable sexual behaviour that automatically leads some people to animals, children, force, and cars?

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Do you believe
that satan exists?

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Irrelevant what I think. I'm not the one saying that there is something wrong with being gay.

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If you do, wouldn't he attack a person at their
weakest link?

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What attack? Are you seriously saying that hitting on somebody is an attack? My god, every heterosexual man in the world is going to hell for having the temerity to ask a woman if she's interested in him.If that guy was going to hell for asking you, then you're going to hell for asking a woman because what he did was no different from what you do.You didn't answer my question: Did it ever occur to you that you might like it? Could anything this man had done possibly made you think that it would have been a pleasant experience...to the point that you would have then gone out and actively sought other men to have sex with?If not, how on earth were you vulnerable? Is your sexuality so fragile that the mere act of another man asking if you might like to have sex with him enough to send your heart a flutter and give you a raging erection?

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There is simply too much graphic sex today, even the
Song of Soloman was not read by men under 30 according to Jewish
tradition.

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And how does that turn people gay? Since all of the graphic sex we see today is heterosexual in nature, how does this turn people gay? How does watching opposite sex couples go at it send a message to people that it is okay to be gay?

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Actually, I used "Germany" but you did pick up on the inference
without a problem. Perhaps it is too good an example?

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No, it's an old rule of debate. That's why it's called "Godwin's Law." First person to mention the Nazis automatically loses. You don't really think we're naive enough to say that because you didn't use the word "Nazi," you weren't talking about them when you mentioned Germans and Jews, do you?But you didn't answer my question: What does that have to do with anything?And I have asked you repeatedly. I would like an answer:If it is possible to "recruit" people, then what would it take to recruit you? What would a person have to do to make you not only like having sex with someone of the same sex but also to actively seek out such activity.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

I guess I find the uncle-nephew concordinance very compelling in suggesting that male homosexuality at least has a genetic component on the X chromosome. Don't get me wrong - it may very well be pre-natally hormonal, as well. But the fact that there's concordinance between persons who developed in sepearate wombs is highly suggestive of a genetic component.

No, it couldn't be. Scientists have statistical ways to determining whether or not their findings are significant, or just coincidence. It's called a "confidence interval" and they mention it at the bottom of the article:

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The linkage to markers on Xq28, the subtelomeric region of the long arm of the sex chromosome, had a multipoint lod score of 4.0 (P = 10(-5), indicating a statistical confidence level of more than 99 percent that at least one subtype of male sexual orientation is genetically influenced.

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So, as you can see, the chance of their findings representing mere coincidence is less than 1 percent. If this doesn't make sense to you you may wish to take a statistics class. Then why the concordinance of genetic markers? Upbringing won't add markers to your DNA where they weren't before.

If you had read the article closely, you would have seen that the experiment was designed to eliminate just the possibilites you raised. After all what good would it have been to design a study about the biological causes of homosexuality without eliminating the possibility of non-biological causes?

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What is so hard to understand? Identical twins are GENETICALLY IDENTICAL. Identical twins that are separated at birth are more likely to both be gay than if they weren't identical. There is a clear & unequivocal link between their genetic identicality & homosexuality. Therefore there is a genetic link to homosexuality.

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Their friends, guardians, experiences, even countries are different, ie. their environments are different, therefore there is more than their environment that is making them gay. That's the genetic identicality bit, right?

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That doesnt mean it's genetic. It could have been a coincidence and obviously a life choice, if both of them choosed the same "way" that doesn't mean it's genetical. If they did the same thing to another pair of identical twins and they both turned out straight you would think nothing of it. There is no direct correlation between their lifestyle choices, and sex preferences.------------------
"I AM THE MESSENJAH"holla at me for any reason at: messenjahjr@yahoo.com

But we're not talking about one or two sets of twins. We're talking about big studies. That's what the confidence interval is about. And the interval here is high enough that we can statistically reject coincidence as an explanation.If there's a statistically significant corellation between the sexual preference of twins - who are separated at birth - then it has to be genetic, because that's the only thing they have in common. What's hard to grasp about that? What does that mean? We determine sexual preference through lifestyle choice. I mean, how do we know if you're gay besides finding out if you have sex with persons of the same sex as you?You'll have to explain what you meant here a little better, because I just don't understand.[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 08-21-2003]

crashfrog:Has anyone done experimentation to see if DNA markers can be altered
through lifestyle applications? I would think that would be so much
harder to determine. Perhaps they just don't wish to investigate
further...Rrhain:In Galatians 5:16-25 says:'I say then, "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of
the flesh." For the flesh LUSTETH AGAINST the Spirit, and the Spirit
against the flesh: these are contrary the one to the other: so that
ye cannot do the things that ye WOULD. But if ye be led of the Spirit
ye are not under the law.Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; ADULTERY,
FORNICATION, UNCLEANESS, LASCIVIOUSNESS, IDOLATRY, WITCHCRAFT,
HATRED, VARIANCE, EMULATIONS, WRATH, STRIFE, SEDITIONS, HERESIES,
ENVYINGS, MURDERS, DRUNKENNESS, REVELLINGS, and SUCH LIKE: of which
I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, they which
do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of GOD.But the fruit of the Spirit is LOVE, JOY, PEACE, LONGSUFFERING,
GENTLENESS, GOODNESS, FAITH, MEEKNESS, TEMPERANCE: against such there
is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh
with the passions and lusts.If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.'Now Rrhain, which list does HOMOSEXUALITY fit under-----that of the
flesh or that of the Spirit. This should answer any question of how
GOD views it.
You say that I was a adult at 19. Does a 19 year old possess the
maturity and experiance of a 45 year old man? Funny, I thought one
needed to be 35 to be president of the USA and 21 to drink in many
states. Now just what were our Founding Fathers thinking..?I did the same thing that Joseph did when approached by his master's
wife. He was OLDER and panicked. I did witness to him about Christ.
Isn't that what Christians SHOULD do?Do you believe a person can be phyically injured? What about
psychologically hurt, isn't that possible? Well I believe that
GOD teaches through the BIBLE that man can be Spiritually damaged
as well. If you are not a Christian, you cannot understand this.What I was suggesting is that Satan uses deviate sex to hold the
unsaved in bondage and destroy the testimony of believers. You
seem to have no clue that it isn't about what YOU think---it is
ALL about what GOD WANTS. Ask yourself the question, "What would
Jesus do?"I don't see people beating down the church doors to become Anglican
priests or even just to attend one of their churchs. I don't see it.
Maybe it is different in England. Have the countries that endorce
Homosexuality become more spritual and godly since doing so?
What would Jesus say and do?

Uh, yeah. That would have been Mendel, back when he discovered how heredity works.What you're arguing is Lamarkian adaptation - like, you get a tooth knocked out, and all your children are missing that tooth. That's been a discredited theory for the past 200 years. Having sex with another man when you're a man yourself doesn't change your DNA.You're really digging, here, when it's simpler to concede the truth - homosexuality has a very strong genetic component, as strong as any other hereditary behavior, like alcoholism. I know you're asking Rrhain, and not me, but my answer would be whichever list had love on it. According to Rrhain's signature he'd RTFM.But seriously, maybe Jesus would display a little more humility and love for what's essentially a biological predisposition than you have been displaying so far. Jesus NEVEr says anything about sex in the Bible, did you notice that? Maybe because sex isn't really that big a deal to Jesus?[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 08-21-2003]

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Does a person wake up one morning & say, "I want to be a prostitute?"
Things happen in steps and stages. Choices we make during our lives
and the friends we listen to all have an influence. Some are for
the good and some are bad.
Do you really believe that if it "feels" good that it's good. Perhaps
your friends family were not the ones being ignorant----but then
I never met them nor your friend.

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That was a Very Bad comparison. A prostitute does it for money. Being Homosexual has nothing to do with that. You have no Control over feelings in this way. Why are you attracted to women? If you even are. for all I know you could have gotten married just Because you think Homosexuality is wrong. I don't know about you but when I see women I like I have no control over how my body feels and it's reaction(if you know what I mean). You can't control that its impossible. so I ask again why did your God put this in them if its wrong?[This message has been edited by DC85, 08-21-2003]

Hey hey crash, and everyone else here. You mentioned:

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You're really digging, here, when it's simpler to concede the truth - homosexuality has a very strong genetic component, as strong as any other hereditary behavior, like alcoholism.

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Out of curiosity, do you think that those naturally predisposed to alcoholism should live a life characterized by the disorder? Should they accept their genetic component and become dependent on alcohol because it feels good, generally leading to "physical and psychological harm and impaired social and vocational functioning?" Heh, I hate it when people quote dictionaries. I apologize, but the definition phrases it better than I would.I'm sure we can all agree that the behavior of an alcoholic is not beneficial, notably to himself but also to loved ones and to society at large. I have offered as much support as I know how to my alcoholic friends over the years in order for them to get the help they need to beat the addiction. Much of the time the addiction is never gone but only suppressed by constant support, such as that provided by AA, which is certainly a life-long endeavor. In the severe cases (which always include the "alcohol gene"), I have rarely known someone who can quit cold turkey and never face a strong addiction again. In fact, in my experience, the few times this is possible are accompanied by acceptance of God into one's life (heh, much like our great president).My only point is that even though we accept the fact that alcoholism is genetic, should we condone it as a beneficial lifestyle? I don't believe so. How are programs like Exodus International different than Alcoholics Anonymous?I imagine most would answer that the homosexual lifestyle doesn't hurt anyone. That is certainly up for debate, and would be answered with endless tirades involving disease, preying, and the unweaving of moral fabrics. Hehe, I won't go there, so I just pose my question about accepting genetic dispositions "as is."Take care,
Jake