First, I would like to express my appreciation at being lumped in with James the righteous. Willowtree says, "the crooked message of James/Truthlover." Thank you.
However, I do not want to grant the "Paul/Willowtree" union.
Willowtree, even though he was not answering me in his post, did at least say something. He quoted Paul and presented an argument for what Paul meant. Congratulations. As far as I can tell, it is the first time it has happened in this thread.
However, as I pointed out in my first post, he is using only part of Paul's message, and he is interpreting it--or at least expecting us to interpret it--in a way that contradicts the rest of his message.
Notice for example, that he talks about the judgment, but he appeals to the Book of Revelation for that, not to Paul's comments on the judgment. Paul says in 2 Cor 5:
quote:
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that everyone may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
What is the reward given for the things done in the body? Let's let Paul answer:
quote:
[God] will render to every many according to his works; to those who, by patiently continuing to do good, seek for glory, honor, and immortality, [he will reward] eternal life (Rom 2:6).
There's a small portion of my case that Paul believed good works were rewarded with eternal life and evil works with wrath. But before I present any more (because it's all presented in the first post, anyway), I want to point something out.
I can take the above quotes by Paul, take them at face value, and come up with an interpretation that makes all his statements about grace sensible as well. Willowtree uses Paul's statements about grace, takes them at a somewhat reasonable face value interpretation, and comes up with an interpretation that completely contradicts other statements Paul makes in the very same letter!!! This is insanity, and only religious people are capable of such interpretation.
There are other, more reasonable interpretations of Paul's statements about grace. Let's move into that by looking at one more of his statements on judgment and works that ties them all together.
quote:
God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man sows, that will he reap. He who sows to the flesh will, from the flesh, reap corruption. He who sows to the Spirit will, from the Spirit, reap everlasting life. Let us not grow weary, then, in doing good, for in due season we shall reap [eternal life], if we do not lose heart (Gal 5:7-9).
Paul believed men were hopeless without Christ. He believed men were pretty much by nature evil. (I won't bother quoting all of Romans 3 where he says men have the poison of asps under their tongues, and they're all evil, every one, etc., because I think Willowtree and I are agreed on that view of Paul's.)
The purpose, according to Paul, of Christ's death was not to pay for the sins of men so that men could sin and go to heaven. It was to deliver them from sin. By the Spirit, they could overcome and "not grow weary in doing good" (as he says in Galatians) or "patiently continue to do good" (as he says in Romans).
To Willowtree, he would say, "God is not mocked! He who sows to the flesh will reap corruption from the flesh. It is only by sowing to the Spirit that you will reap everlasting life."
You see, one of the major differences here is that Christians tend to interpret "grace" as though it were "mercy." Grace is not mercy. Grace is the power of God that comes and grants the disciples of Christ the power to stop sinning and to "patiently continue to do good" so that they can reap eternal life.
Paul says all this pretty directly.
In Rom 6:14:
quote:
Sin will not have power over us, for we are not under law, but under grace.
In Titus 2:13 (acknowledging that Paul may not have written Titus, but even if he didn't, it is a contemporary use of the word "charis" or grace):
quote:
For the grace of God has appeared, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.
Different view of what grace is, isn't it!
Therefore, when Willowtree quotes a verse like Eph 2:8, as though it contrasted works and not doing works, he is in error. Eph 2:8-10 contrasts working to do good apart from Christ with working to good in Christ. One doesn't work, the other does, and that is Paul's message. Here's a larger portion of Eph 2, since Willowtree wants "context."
quote:
And you [has he made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked, according to the ways of this world, according to...the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience...and we were by nature the children of wrath...
That's from Eph 2:1-3, where he defines the problem to which Eph 2:8-10 is the solution. But in vs. 5 he gives us a preview of vv. 8-10 and helps us see what grace is:
quote:
Even when we were dead in sins, he has made us alive together with Christ--by grace are you saved.
Here, he explains that the change from dead in sins to alive with Christ is what grace does (or maybe even is).
Finally, he gets to the famous Eph 2:8, which is generally misinterpreted by Christians, including Willowtree, to conflict with everything Paul said about judgment.
quote:
For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Yeshua to do good works, which God has prepared beforehand for us to walk in.
Notice that Willowtree, as is typical among Christians, only quotes the first "works" in that passage and ignores the second. Their interpretation only works for Eph 2:8, but it fails at Eph 2:10! It works well in Galatians 2:20, but it falls apart at Gal 5:19-21 and Gal 6:7-10.
No wonder that skeptics can argue about the contradiction between Paul and James. Willowtree and born again Christians in general create contradictions between Paul and Paul as well! Between Galatians and Galatians, Ephesians and Ephesians, and Romans and Romans!
I think I've made my case pretty clearly, but I want to address any of Willowtree's verses that may appear not to fit what I'm saying, so it can be seen they fit just fine, without any mental gymnastics.
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
I pointed out in my first post, but not here, that Paul addressed salvation in two ways. One is justification, where the unrighteous person, by nature a child of wrath, is brought to life in Christ and changed into a new creature. That is accomplished by faith, through the death of Christ, apart from works.
The other way he addresses salvation is at the judgment, where people are judged by their works, not by their faith, and eternal life or wrath is rewarded.
Here, Paul is speaking of justification, the process of being made righteous and becoming a new creature in Christ. To Paul that was indeed by faith apart from works. How could a person dead in sins work to make themselves alive in Christ? They can't. But once that's happened, they can indeed work, and are commanded and threatened by Paul concerning works, because they are now "his workmanship, created in Christ Yeshua to do good works."
Repeated from post 1, let me give just one passage, because it states the difference between past tense salvation, where one is made alive in Christ by Christ's death and future tense salvation, where one lives righteously, tied to Christ's life and Spirit, and then faces a judgment by works:
quote:
Much more then, being now justified [past tense] by his blood [death of Christ], we shall be saved [future tense] from wrath [the judgment, see Rom 2:6-8, just three chapters earlier] through him [his life, not his death]. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled [past tense] by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled [now that this has happened, things are different, we are his workmanship], we shall be saved [future tense] by his life (Rom 5:9,10).
Personally, I think that's very clear.
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
This addresses that past tense salvation. I agree totally with this. It goes on to say, however:
[qs]First, I would like to express my appreciation at being lumped in with James the righteous. Willowtree says, "the crooked message of James/Truthlover." Thank you.
However, I do not want to grant the "Paul/Willowtree" union.
Willowtree, even though he was not answering me in his post, did at least say something. He quoted Paul and presented an argument for what Paul meant. Congratulations. As far as I can tell, it is the first time it has happened in this thread.
However, as I pointed out in my first post, he is using only part of Paul's message, and he is interpreting it--or at least expecting us to interpret it--in a way that contradicts the rest of his message.
Notice for example, that he talks about the judgment, but he appeals to the Book of Revelation for that, not to Paul's comments on the judgment. Paul says in 2 Cor 5:
quote:
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that everyone may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
What is the reward given for the things done in the body? Let's let Paul answer:
quote:
[God] will render to every many according to his works; to those who, by patiently continuing to do good, seek for glory, honor, and immortality, [he will reward] eternal life (Rom 2:6).
There's a small portion of my case that Paul believed good works were rewarded with eternal life and evil works with wrath. But before I present any more (because it's all presented in the first post, anyway), I want to point something out.
I can take the above quotes by Paul, take them at face value, and come up with an interpretation that makes all his statements about grace sensible as well. Willowtree uses Paul's statements about grace, takes them at a somewhat reasonable face value interpretation, and comes up with an interpretation that completely contradicts other statements Paul makes in the very same letter!!! This is insanity, and only religious people are capable of such interpretation.
There are other, more reasonable interpretations of Paul's statements about grace. Let's move into that by looking at one more of his statements on judgment and works that ties them all together.
quote:
God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man sows, that will he reap. He who sows to the flesh will, from the flesh, reap corruption. He who sows to the Spirit will, from the Spirit, reap everlasting life. Let us not grow weary, then, in doing good, for in due season we shall reap [eternal life], if we do not lose heart (Gal 5:7-9).
Paul believed men were hopeless without Christ. He believed men were pretty much by nature evil. (I won't bother quoting all of Romans 3 where he says men have the poison of asps under their tongues, and they're all evil, every one, etc., because I think Willowtree and I are agreed on that view of Paul's.)
The purpose, according to Paul, of Christ's death was not to pay for the sins of men so that men could sin and go to heaven. It was to deliver them from sin. By the Spirit, they could overcome and "not grow weary in doing good" (as he says in Galatians) or "patiently continue to do good" (as he says in Romans).
To Willowtree, he would say, "God is not mocked! He who sows to the flesh will reap corruption from the flesh. It is only by sowing to the Spirit that you will reap everlasting life."
You see, one of the major differences here is that Christians tend to interpret "grace" as though it were "mercy." Grace is not mercy. Grace is the power of God that comes and grants the disciples of Christ the power to stop sinning and to "patiently continue to do good" so that they can reap eternal life.
Paul says all this pretty directly.
In Rom 6:14:
quote:
Sin will not have power over us, for we are not under law, but under grace.
In Titus 2:13 (acknowledging that Paul may not have written Titus, but even if he didn't, it is a contemporary use of the word "charis" or grace):
quote:
For the grace of God has appeared, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.
Different view of what grace is, isn't it!
Therefore, when Willowtree quotes a verse like Eph 2:8, as though it contrasted works and not doing works, he is in error. Eph 2:8-10 contrasts working to do good apart from Christ with working to good in Christ. One doesn't work, the other does, and that is Paul's message. Here's a larger portion of Eph 2, since Willowtree wants "context."
quote:
And you [has he made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked, according to the ways of this world, according to...the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience...and we were by nature the children of wrath...
That's from Eph 2:1-3, where he defines the problem to which Eph 2:8-10 is the solution. But in vs. 5 he gives us a preview of vv. 8-10 and helps us see what grace is:
quote:
Even when we were dead in sins, he has made us alive together with Christ--by grace are you saved.
Here, he explains that the change from dead in sins to alive with Christ is what grace does (or maybe even is).
Finally, he gets to the famous Eph 2:8, which is generally misinterpreted by Christians, including Willowtree, to conflict with everything Paul said about judgment.
quote:
For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Yeshua to do good works, which God has prepared beforehand for us to walk in.
Notice that Willowtree, as is typical among Christians, only quotes the first "works" in that passage and ignores the second. Their interpretation only works for Eph 2:8, but it fails at Eph 2:10! It works well in Galatians 2:20, but it falls apart at Gal 5:19-21 and Gal 6:7-10.
No wonder that skeptics can argue about the contradiction between Paul and James. Willowtree and born again Christians in general create contradictions between Paul and Paul as well! Between Galatians and Galatians, Ephesians and Ephesians, and Romans and Romans!
I think I've made my case pretty clearly, but I want to address any of Willowtree's verses that may appear not to fit what I'm saying, so it can be seen they fit just fine, without any mental gymnastics.
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
I pointed out in my first post, but not here, that Paul addressed salvation in two ways. One is justification, where the unrighteous person, by nature a child of wrath, is brought to life in Christ and changed into a new creature. That is accomplished by faith, through the death of Christ, apart from works.
The other way he addresses salvation is at the judgment, where people are judged by their works, not by their faith, and eternal life or wrath is rewarded.
Here, Paul is speaking of justification, the process of being made righteous and becoming a new creature in Christ. To Paul that was indeed by faith apart from works. How could a person dead in sins work to make themselves alive in Christ? They can't. But once that's happened, they can indeed work, and are commanded and threatened by Paul concerning works, because they are now "his workmanship, created in Christ Yeshua to do good works."
Repeated from post 1, let me give just one passage, because it states the difference between past tense salvation, where one is made alive in Christ by Christ's death and future tense salvation, where one lives righteously, tied to Christ's life and Spirit, and then faces a judgment by works:
quote:
Much more then, being now justified [past tense] by his blood [death of Christ], we shall be saved [future tense] from wrath [the judgment, see Rom 2:6-8, just three chapters earlier] through him [his life, not his death]. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled [past tense] by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled [now that this has happened, things are different, we are his workmanship], we shall be saved [future tense] by his life (Rom 5:9,10).
Personally, I think that's very clear.
I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.
Right, but what is the grace of God? As Paul says, "Sin shall not have power over you, because you are not under law, but under grace" (Rom 6:14). I do not set aside the grace of God, either. If righteousness can be obtained through the law, then Christ's death is pointless. But if righteousness must be obtained through grace, which delivers us from the power of sin and teaches us that "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age," then Christ did not die in vain.
If, however, grace means you don't have to "patiently continue to do good," then you have the powerless, pointless religion that doesn't change anyone's life, or hardly anyone's, which is exactly what you see among "born again" Christians.
Jude warned of those who are "turning the grace of God into lasciviousness." It's a very old problem, but it apparently hasn't gone away.
The other day I saw a "saved" car. It had several Christian stickers. It also had one that said, "Horn doesn't work, watch for finger." They have received the wrong grace of God.
. But it's hard to express one's heart, and even harder to explain the grace and salvation of God, in a couple sentences.
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