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Author | Topic: Existence of Demons (and Angels) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Lets keep our focus on the Demons and the Angels. I have had experiences which lead me to believe that these entities COULD exist, and personally thought so, yet I cannot prove my hypothesis to any general public satisfaction. How many of you have had a supernatural encounter?(or thought that you did?)
Here again is our Topic starter:
Xenocrates writes: I was wondering what people thought about the existence of demons and angels, and their interactions with our daily lives. This is a topic that has been of interest to me for a very long time, and I have done a lot of reading and researching about it.
(edited for clarity by adminPhat)
1) I believe that demons and angels are very real, and they are constantly influencing our daily lives whether we know it or not.2) I do not personally know anyone who has physically seen demons (I know OF people who have, and I could name a few), but I can sense demons as if they were physically there 3) Spirit of the Rainforest is one of the books I place the most weight on in my personal philosophy dealing with demons. Xenocrates has read some good books on the subject. This topic is similar to our other topic, Spirits and other incorporial things But as this one is new, lets keep our focus on the possibility of the existance of Demons and Angels. Much has been written about them. Any comments? This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 12-06-2004 04:48 PM
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
IRH writes: Personally, I would feel more comfortable attributing some credit to a force or entity greater than myself. I am not the Creator/definer of this universe, nor will I or any human ever be.
I find the notion of demons and angels distasteful, personally. It's essentially a cop-out. Saying "a demon made me do it" is trying to avoid responsibility for one's actions, and saying "an angel helped me" is attributing inner strength and heroism to some mythical entity.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
First off, I would like to remind everyone that our topic should focus on Angels and Demons. Any other whimsical incorporeal entities can be discussed in the thread on incorporeal spirits.
Xenocrates, often in these forums you may experience a clash of the worldviews with others. To some, reality is an absolute. Truth is an absolute. As a believer, God is an absolute. This world view presupposes that God is real no matter what anyone else believes or thinks. The contrary world view that you will meet states that truth is relative to the individual and that the entire universe is in fact relative, defined only by provable and verifiable natural laws which we learn more about each day. The yardstick of authority is human wisdom. As believers, we will never convince relativists that our absolute values and beliefs are true. One consolation that you will find is that God, if He is alive, real, and omnipotant as we believe, will Himself orchestrate the establishment of His absolute presence and will so that every knee will indeed bow one way or another some day. In the meantime, you and I need to learn how to coexist with those who believe entirely differently than we do. The victory is ours yet the battle is surely the Lords. I believe in Demons and I believe that we as humans deal with them occasionally. When you find yourself as a believer in a debate that causes you to lose your joy and your rational behavior, it could be that demons are directly or indirectly involved. It does not matter if everyone believes this or agrees with it. It only matters to you as a believer what is happening to you and how you can get your joy and security back.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
God is real.Angels and Demons may well exist. Why do you believe that? Because I was born again. I experienced Him.And I have seen proof. How do you know it was not wishful thinking? Are there other possible explanations? Yes, in theory. But hold up. Let me ask you a few questions. How do you know that the Bible is so fallible? Because smart professors taught me to use critical thinking. All that they showed you is contrary evidence. Yes, but it made sense. Who believes in myths? Have you ever met God? No, and I never will. Why is that? Because my human reasoning has explained the myth. How do you know that your human reasoning is the authority? This is my religion. Freedom to think. Think about me when I tell you that God loves you and is real. I may be an Angel. Highly unlikely. Angels don't use forums. Oh OK I guess thats good enough. There are many ways of looking at a belief system.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Coragyps writes: I dunno. I went through the L.S.D. Mushroom era,and I know how the substances work. There is more exposure to different stimulus and perceptions for sure...but I am not convinced that our perception = what is actually real. I have heard unseen and unknown voices while not tripping. I have had friends who were tripping and had a host of encounters. So was it all the drugs? Like I said, for me the conclusion Isn't.
I just found this topic.Like Demosthenes Fan (hi, new people!!!) said, if you take yage or other hallucinogens, it's not any big surprise if you "talk to demons" while you're trippin'. Back in 1969 I sat outside the bowling alley in Bentonville, Arkansas, and watched the cars coming down the bypass turn into running tigers and lions as they went by.....Modern synthetic stuff instead of Harmala sp., but the same effect. There are dozens of examples of people "seeing demons" or "angels" when they are known to have ingested some such stuff - ergot-infested rye in medieval France, absinthe, peyote - or when they've gone on a three-day fast like the Plains Indians here in the US used to do. It's brain chemistry. It doesn't necessarily have to involve taking anything - our bodies can manufacture the chemicals. Cultural context is what determines the difference between "God spoke to me!" and "Whoa! That was weird!"
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
seraphim writes: What did they look like? Did they talk to you? Did anyone else see them? How did you feel while you were experiencing them?
I believe in demons because I have seen them, on more than one occasion.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
crashfrog writes:
What I can't figure out is, if all these demons and angels exist, then why can't all the people who see them agree on who they are, what they're doing, what their goals are, what their powers are, etc.Think about it. IF these things existed and IF they had powers beyond human, why would they cooperate with us at all? We can as Christians usually agree on what they are and what their purpose is.
And why is it that nobody who has training in a rigourous field of knowledge acquisition ever sees them? Why aren't psychologists seeing them? Biologists? Physicists?Who says that some prominant people have not seen them? After all, if I were a professional and saw such an event, I would keep quiet about it lest my peers thought me a nut case!
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
crashfrog writes: C'mon! IF these entities were truly supernatural and IF the Bible had it right about the fact of a spiritual war being a reality THEN these "things" not only would be uncooperative but they would be actively hostile! I realize that we can only discuss these possibilities on a theoretical level but, unlike pink elephants, there is some historical credence for consideration of these supernatural claims. Why would "cooperation" be necessary? We study animals pretty well and they aren't in the least bit interested in cooperating. As for the peer pressure theory? Lets assume that for every story like mine that is undeniably true to the individual, 3 more are made up elaborations to "fit in" with the group. This still leaves plenty of stories that are not made up. At best, they are cases of mistaken assumption UNLESS we actually experienced the supernatural.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
mick writes: I have, of course. (I used to drink a fair amount of beer and whatnot) Have you ever seen anything that you didn't believe in? I have also experienced what I believe to be a supernatural event.In this case, I heard several voices at once...clear as day. Two others also heard them, and it was established that nobody tricked anybody else.(Unless they were very good at it and have said nothing about it for five years...an unlikely scenario) You cannot say with 100% certainty that such entities do not exist. Science is not the final arbitrator of every event in life.Humans are logical and emotional.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Angeldust writes:
And not only do I agree, but I might point out that there are more believers than a few freaked out whackos. However, I will agree with you on the existance of demons/angels. There really does come a point in one's Christian life where it would be dishonest to oneself to deny what you have seen/experienced. Have I seen personally? Yes. Do I have friends that have seen personally? Yes. Will someone follow this post and ask if I've done drugs? Probably. the answer? No. I have stories. I have what I believe because of experience. Will I convince anyone else? No, probably not. It's not really my goal here to seek to change someone mind, I'm just looking for opinions and good information. Some people's paradigm allows them to believe. Some people's doesn't. Again, science is not the only arbitrator in all minds. To some, it is Gospel, however. More power to you...now go invent something!
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Hi, Spector....welcome to EvC. We go around and around here on numerous topics...occasionally we even make sense!
You said:Spector writes: Tell us more! When was this in the paper? Can we look up the article online?? Some kidnapper in Jamaica-Queens, NY decided to kidnap my mother and hold her hostage. She kept praying while huddled bound in the perpertrator's van, and angels appeared and stopped the man from driving. He let her go, and the case was printed in the newspaper. I believe you, by the way. I bet that your Mom has a lot of Faith because of what happened and probably even before that, huh? This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-12-2005 12:35 PM
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Schraff writes: It is true that I am positively reinforcing her beliefs. I suppose that I am not being a detached, logical and rational observer, am I? Angeldust's beliefs are positively reinforced and encouraged by a fellow believer, Phatboy. Disbelief is also discouraged and science and rationality are discounted by Phatboy. I do not dismiss science and rationality except when every attempt is made to quench someones faith through use of same. I gotta stick up for what I believe, as do you.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Schraf writes: OK Good point. I have been accused of ignoring facts and sticking with beliefs...which I occasionally do. If knowledge must be avoided in order to keep someone's faith intact, then it's not a very good kind of faith, is it? One that promotes ignorance? It is all probably a lot less spectacular than I imagine, anyway. I DO hold fast to my beliefs, however. It will take more than human logic and wisdom to change my worldview. Maybe an antipsychotic drug will do the trick,eh? *ponders what was said...* "Away from me Satan! Jesus, please bless Schraf and Faith and...*pause* even Rrhain!" This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-17-2005 07:01 AM
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
brennakimi writes: Where do you find a zoroastrian church anyway?? ...so he left the church and became a zoroastrian. I believe the part about demons in the heirarchy! In my belief, demons exist and are more likely to bother high ranking people such as Presidents and Popes rather than to possess the neighbor who then is "out to get you". I don't go looking for demons, however. That would be as ludicrous as looking for UFO's, whom I believe to actually be demonic manifestations in the documented cases.After all, in the context of my belief, Jesus is the Lord of the Universe. Why then, would UFO aliens staunchly avoid mentioning Him?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Miracles are contrary to the known laws of the universe.
God never breaks laws. When God acts, His action is in and of itself a law. The law of God. Laws do not exist without God. Why? Because ideas do not exist without God. Why? Because ideas are expressions of intelligence. Human wisdom is not the source of explaining a universe. Why? Because creation can only be explained by a Creator. If human wisdom was our source, we would be creators. Creators of ideas, concepts, explanations, and words themselves. The Bible says that in the beginning was the word. Words are spoken truth or explanations of reality. One thing that we may agree on. We as humans were not in the beginning.
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