Existence of Demons (and Angels)

Not sure whose post to answer, but yours seems a likely place to start. I've also had such experiences I'd like to share.The very first was during a couple of years when I was intensely interested in the supernatural, before I became a Christian after being an atheist for most of my life. I'd come to believe in God but didn't understand salvation yet or anything Biblical or Christian. I believe that I became susceptible to demonic influence because of dabbling in the occult during that period -- various kinds of oracles mostly. I had become a believer in God by reading some books by Hindu gurus and it was a couple of years before I was drawn away from all that to Christ.In that period an apparition appeared in my room just as I was on the verge of sleep. This was no dream but in that state you are in an altered state of consciuosness. I "saw" him "through" my closed eyelids. I recognized him. He looked exactly like one of the "street people" in the town I was living in, who was said to have lost his mind in Vietnam, someone I normally went out of my way to avoid because he had once threatened me with a broken bottle as I passed him on the sidewalk. Others assured me he wasn't violent but he certainly had taken a violent dislike to me. This apparition in my room looked identical to him and was coming at me with a rage-filled face as if to do me harm. I felt a sort of electric sensation in the back of my neck, and my hair stood on end. Even in my half-sleep I instantly pronounced a sort of charm a friend who had lived in a semi-Christian cult had given me for protection against just such occurrences, a charm that appealed to the name of Jesus, and the apparition immediately just disappeared. Then I woke up with this prickling sensation in the back of my neck and head.The whole thing was very strange. I no longer believe in the biblical validity of such formulaic charms and believe they belong to the world of the occult, shamans and witches and so on, and not to God, so I think maybe that whole event was a demon-staged demonstration of demon power to keep me in bondage to the occult and away from Christ. But of course I can only guess.I am sure the man in reality was demon possessed and the demon was capable of appearing apart from the man in his likeness (I believe this is what the spirits of "haunted houses" most likely are too, demons who have taken on the appearance of human beings they once possessed). The demon didn't like me for some reason. I thought it must have had something to do with spiritual forces surrounding me as I was heavily into the occult. I had to have been protected by God's own angels too, in spite of not yet believing in Jesus -- I had to be because I encountered many spiritually dangerous situations like that one in those days and managed to survive them at least physically if not spiritually unharmed. So their presence may be what provoked the demon or demons in this man but I can only guess as I never had any contact with him except passing him on the sidewalk.In that same period I was trying to learn how to pray and at one point was lying on my bed in the dark talking in my mind to my very vague idea of Jesus, still without having any clear notion who he was, when I heard a high-pitched voice say "out loud" in a mocking tone "she is praying to Jesus Christ." It is hard to describe this hearing. You are not hearing with your ears but with some other part of yourself, your spirit I guess, somewhere in the region of the head but not the ears. I was alone, but if anyone else had been present they wouldn't have heard a thing. And yet it is a distinct "sound" a distinct "voice."Once a few years later as I was about to pray for a woman who was dying, her name was pronounced so loudly "inside my head" it startled me. To try to describe it, it sounded like a voice spoken inside a huge empty metal-walled space (yeah, I know, jokes about what it's like inside my head and all that), and this spirit hadn't learned to modulate his voice to the right volume. If it had been a physically produced voice in physical space it would have hurt my eardrums. This was also in the dark at night as the first two instances I mentioned were.Another time while visiting at a Christian commune I again had a middle-of-the-night experience, this time the sensation of something trying to strangle me, like hands gripping my throat to choke me. There was nothing/nobody in the room. I said -- out loud I think though I'm not sure -- that I was protected by the blood of Jesus Christ and the sensation went away.Up until the last couple of years I would sometimes "sense" presences around me, in my room at night most commonly. I would just pray very fervently to God to please protect me and none have materialized in any form in a very long time now.I also had other kinds of odd experiences in that same period, some scary, some "beautiful," many in the daytime too, but of a different type, and though I connect them with the occult there weren't any demonic apparitions.If you read books by Hindu teachers you may well run across descriptions of such things as the apparition I describe above, the experience of people appearing in more than one place at one time for instance. {EDIT: Not usually frightening though, I should say, just the phenomenon of one person seeming to be in two places -- or even more than two --at one time} They don't tell you this is demon impersonation, they treat it as something some "spiritual adepts" are capable of (rather than your run-of-the-mill mentally disturbed/demon-possessed Vietnam vets), so it is only from Biblical knowledge that I recognize such experiences as demonic.And before I end this long drawn out account, I want to add that although I had friends who were concerned about my health and asked me if I'd been under unusual stress lately or was taking drugs and all that, I also discovered that since I was so free about describing these odd things, that other people described their odd experiences to me in exchange, which otherwise, when I was the atheist, they'd never have mentioned to me. I heard stories of other apparitions, of a "memory" of an event that happened many years later, of "angels" saving people from imminent danger, and every kind of occultic thing. I'd gone from doubting all those things to believing all of them, so people were willing to tell me about them. I still believe they are all true experiences of something real, but I now view them through the Biblical lens, mostly as manifestations of Satan's kingdom.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-16-2005 10:58 PM

I studied all that stuff years ago. I know what's real and what is a hallucination, and I myself pointed out that I was in the hypnagogic state in that first experience. I was not in the others. In the one where I was being choked I was awakened out of a sound sleep. In the others I was wide awake.What "science" interprets as hallucination may or may not be. It may be the spirit world. You'd never know as you rule out the possibility a priori.How would you know if the hypnagogic state produces hallucinations or is a state in which a person is more open to the spirit world? Not that it's necessary in either case, as both happen outside that state too. You can't answer such questions by merely assuming the answer.{Edited to clarify}This message has been edited by Faith, 04-17-2005 12:13 AM

OK, but what's more parsimonious about the idea of hallucinations? I think really it's only considered parsimonious to make that choice simply because of the prejudice against the supernatural. It has no RATIONAL basis in other words. There's nothing INHERENTLY more parsimonious or "elegant" about the psychological explanation. No two people have the same hallucinations either and no two people could actually be certain that they ARE hallucinations. Both kinds of phenomena are just about beyond pinning down, in other words, completely unique to the person, with completely idiosyncratic details.If it's the spirit world there are NO guarantees of any kind of consistent content as we're dealing with intelligent beings who put all their considerable malevolent genius into creating illusions to deceive the human race -- even to creating apparent patterns and consistency if they think that's what would deceive us most effectively, even to convincing us it's all really hallucinations.If it IS hallucinations, what kind of consistent pattern would you expect to find there from one person to the next considering the uniqueness of human personality?And again, if in frustration at these facts you give up in favor of the supposedly more parsimonious explanation, I can't see that you have any real grounds for selecting one over the other.I suppose it would be interesting to try to devise a test for these things, but it would have to be a very clever and sophisticated test. I've certainly had experiences of being fooled by my mind. I've also had experiences of "seeing" things that I know are coming from my mind and not outside. There is a definite difference between these kinds of things and what I described above.There are discussions in Christian literature about demonic activity. I've read quite a bit of it, but I haven't been looking for particular patterns in it to establish its reality or try to prove it to anyone, so I don't know how far one might go with that kind of goal from studying such things.

You mean how do I know about the character of demons? I guess there's a lot that goes into that. Can you ask the question more specifically?

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I know what's real and what is a hallucination...

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How? You do it by testing and the scientific method is the best methid we have for that. The misconception among believers that their beliefs about the world, based solely on opinion, are somehow equitable to discovered verifiable fact is a gulf between superstitous theism and realism that perhaps cannot be crossed.

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Some things can't be tested. That puts us all at a disadvantage but there it is.

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You may believe that you have in demons and angels or leprechuans and smurfs or pink unicorns and flying away on Pegasus, but until you can provide some test or verifiable observation, you're misguided if you think anyone else should take you seriously.

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Some will some won't. I don't worry about whether all take me seriously or not. Those who understand understand. That's the way it is.

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What "science" interprets as hallucination may or may not be. It may be the spirit world. You'd never know as you rule out the possibility a priori.

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Absolutely not. I know hallucinations exist, having expierenced them and science having tested them. Hypnagogic hallucinations can be triggered in a controlled enviroment. Demons and angels and leprechuans and all the rest of that rot have been talked about for ages and not one iota of evidence has been found for their existence.

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There's tons of evidence, just not physical evidence, and since you discount or reinterpret all the witness evidence it might as well not exist for you, but evidence it is nevertheless, however fraught with difficulties of interpretation and sorting it out from hallucinations as you say and so on.Of course there is such a thing as a hallucination and I've had a few and I know the difference. You don't have to believe me. It's a free country.

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So, unless evodence is presented for these entities, I will continue to dismiss them and it is in no way a priori. Show me some evidence and I will accept it.

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The evidence is all witness evidence. If you don't find it compelling there's nothing I can do about that, you will as you say continue to dismiss it. End of story.

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In the one where I was being choked I was awakened out of a sound sleep. In the others I was wide awake.

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If you have read about hypnagogia much, you are aware that those who expierence it often think they are awake and the feeling of being choked or being unable to breath is common feature of such hallucinations.

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I've had very distinct hypnagogic experiences, the paralysis and so on, at many times in my life. This one was not a hypnagogic experience. I was SOUND asleep, not in twilight sleep at all. The sensation of something gripping my throat woke me up. I tried to speak and couldn't get the words out clearly, but thinking the words caused the sensation to release. This was not like that feeling of paralysis that comes with hypnagogic states where you simply can't move a muscle, can't act. It wasn't that I couldn't act from my own paralysis as there was no paralysis, it was that something was gripping my throat. Again, I know the difference.

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How would you know if the hypnagogic state produces hallucinations or is a state in which a person is more open to the spirit world?

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Well, we know hypnagogia exists, as I stated above. If the spirit world were to be similarly documented then your question might have merit.

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Oh it's documented tremendously, but a certain prejudice causes people to dismiss the evidence.

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What you are asking is analagous to saying "How would we know whether children's parents sometimes take a bite of a cookie that was left for Santa on Christmas eve or if Santa actually did it?" We can safely answer that with, "There is no evidence for the existence of Santa, while there is ample evidence for that sort of playful, festive deception on the part of parents".

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Silly analogy. Demons are acknowledged throughout history by all peoples. Santa is known to be an invention.

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You can't answer such questions by merely assuming the answer.

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I am not assuming the answer, as described above. What you really can't do is answer such questions completely subjectively and expect them to be accepted or correct.

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There's no other way to answer them so take it or leave it. Your leaving it is to be expected.

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OK, but what's more parsimonious about the idea of hallucinations?
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Uh, we know that people hallucinate?

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Well, you don't know for sure that those hallucinations aren't real experiences of spiritual beings, or even visions created by spiritual beings, you simply assume they are created by the person's mind. That can't be proved by any test that I know of. Some MAY be merely hallucinations, some not. Some tests may actually open a person to the spirit realm. I can certainly believe that possible. Some hypnagogic states may be nothing but mental phenomena or they may in fact involve spirit influence. How could you tell?

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We can induce hallucinations of all kinds through various means. We can even induce hallucinations while scanning people's brains to see which parts are active.

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And I don't doubt the reality of mental events such as hallucinations but telling them from other phenomena may not be so easy.

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People have reported similar sorts of hallucinations when they were caused by similar things. Not always identical, but quite similar.

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For example, a report of hypnogigic hallucination or generally has some similar features:

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A very good scientific page on sleep paralysis which includes the research you are asking for

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1) They are associated with sleep
2) Paralysis upon waking
3) Pressure on chest
4) Cannot speak
5) The feeling of an intruder, often malevolent
6) Intense feeling of dread

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These feelings are common to people having these hallucinations.

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Well as I just posted to someone else here, I've had hypnagogic experiences and these I describe above were not hypnagogic. Even the one with the apparition didn't have these characteristics although it did occur when I wasn't yet fully asleep, in the hypnagogic pre-sleep state. There was no paralysis, there was no pressure on the chest, I had no feeling of inability to speak or anything else, this was not a "feeling of an intruder" it was an actual apparition I actually saw, and this was not just a feeling of dread without an object, it had a clear object. It was the same with the strangling experience -- no paralysis and none of the rest of it, simply the sensation of something gripping my throat, even a sensation of fingers digging in, but no paralysis, and no dread either, just the sudden fear of something real that had to be dealt with. I've had that "nameless dread" feeling and the paralysis of the hypnagogic state too but NONE of these experiences had that quality to them. The times I heard voices I was awake and using my mind, not even half asleep, and none of those experiences listed were part of it. I do think however that the twilight state is more open to such experiences. If we are spiritual beings, why wouldn't it make sense that some states would be more open to such influences than others? How could you possibly test to know for sure which was which -- a purely mental creation or something external?

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On the other hand, there is nothing parsimonious at all about "intelligent beings who put all their considerable malevolent genius into creating illusions to deceive the human race."

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Sure there is, to those who are certain of their reality. It's not to you because you dismiss all the claims. Hallucinations are real to you so you consider that theory parsimonious. I think hallucinations are real too, but that not all "hallucinations" are hallucinations.

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At any rate, you don't quite have it right. Demons are acknowledged throughout history by all peoples and are known to be an invention.

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Not by the peoples who acknowledge them, only by "modern" people who consider themselves above all that. The way I said it the first time was the truth. Santa is not considered by anyone ever to be real. You really don't stop to think very often I'm afraid.

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Well, you don't know for sure that those hallucinations aren't real experiences of spiritual beings, or even visions created by spiritual beings, you simply assume they are created by the person's mind.
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We can create them in people's minds on purpose.

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I am very sure that you cannot create anything in anybody's mind like what I'm describing.

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Why would that be possible if such hallucinations weren't creations of people's own minds?

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You no doubt can elicit hallucinations that are products of the mind. But it is also possible that in the process of stimulating the brain you could cause the kind of state that makes a person receptive to spirit input and you'd have no way to know the difference. Or you might, but since you wouldn't be open to such phenomena you wouldn't be prepared to recognize the difference.

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Yes, everything that happens could be caused by demons. In fact, I could actually be possessed by a demon right now, except that the demon doesn't want to be detected, so it maintains my behavior and thoughts to be exactly what would be normal for me to do.

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I wouldn't suspect demon possession unless there were symptoms that suggested it, such as the rages of the mentally disturbed man I was talking about.

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Which is more parsimonious;

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1) That I am not possessed by a demon and am functioning as I generally do, or

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2) that I am possessed by a demon which is making me function as I normally do?

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As long as "functioning as you normally do" doesn't involve channeling spirit messages or having psychic powers or reading oracles or having frequent homicidal rages or other similar behavior I wouldn't suspect you of being demon possessed. I don't think demons MAKE a person do things anyway. I think they influence moods and ideas, give visions etc.

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Which explanation assumes the most unneeded factors?

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There's no need to seek any explanation for normal behavior. It's the unusual experiences that are the subject of this thread that make demonic activity a reasonable explanation.

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That can't be proved by any test that I know of.
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No, it can't be proved, just like nothing in science can prove anything.

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I disagree. Science developed precisely because it was able to prove many things. That's what empirical observation, experimentation, replication and the test of falsification are all about. But it only applies reliably to physical events that are predictable, measurable, continuously observable in the present. When we get into spiritual things, mental things, unreplicable events and the like, then we have a problem with proof, as we are no longer dealing with observable predictable physical phenomena.

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However, you asked about parsimony, not 100% proof.

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Please stick with parsimony instead of changing the subject.

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Sorry if I did but I'm not sure I did. I think I was introducing the subject of proof myself as I'm also considering how tests might be constructed for these phenomena, not only considering the idea of parsimony.

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Some MAY be merely hallucinations, some not.
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How do you know if they aren't hallucinations?

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That's the question, isn't it? -- how COULD one know for sure. I think there are cases where you couldn't.

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Some tests may actually open a person to the spirit realm. I can certainly believe that possible.
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That's nice. What's your evidence that a "spirit realm" exists?

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Oh, many many accounts of such occurrences over the centuries. Jesus dealt with demons, and the people certainly knew they were demons when they brought their children to Him to cast them out. In fact there were Jewish exorcists of the time. The phenomena have been recognized everywhere until relatively recently.Up until recently I believe the parsimonious interpretation of certain kinds of phenomena would have been demonic activity rather than hallucinations because they were taken for granted. Now they are denied so hallucinations have become the parsimonious explanation.Back in the days when I didn't believe any of this and thought every odd thing of this type was hallucinations and other mental phenomena as most here do, I was very startled to run across in a journal of literary criticism a quote of the German critic Erich Heller (authored books on Thomas Mann, Franz Kafka, Goethe, Nietzsche) to the effect that he wasn't at all sure that what we think of as psychological phenomena were not demonic activity as used to be believed. I remember I had to reread that sentence many times before I actually understood that he was saying that demons might be the explanation for some phenomena and that psychology is barking up the wrong tree. That's all he said. He said it in passing, in the middle of discussing some literary production or other, I don't remember what. Or actually, it may have been somebody else quoting him, too bad I can't remember better. Very very startling. First time I ever heard a Modern Man say such a thing. I'm still surprised that he could have had such a thought and I wonder where it came from in his own experience. No effort was made to PROVE such a thing. How could you? We prefer the psychological paradigm, that's all, but there's no way to show that it is REALLY "all there is to" some phenomena.

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Some hypnagogic states may be nothing but mental phenomena or they may in fact involve spirit influence. How cold you tell?

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You can't, that's the point.

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We can induce such states on purpose.

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We know that taking acid doesn't actually make the walls melt; the people under acid's influence are having a hallucination.

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Yes, and I took acid a couple times and the walls melted and the lights exploded into crystalline patterns and I knew it was a hallucination. HOWEVER, SOME people took acid and believed that they had found "God" and a "higher consciousness." And that is a real possibility it seems to me, that drugs can connect a person to a spiritual reality that is ordinarily not experienced. My own experience was just my own mind's being affected by the chemical. But people of a New Age persuasion think of drugs as a gateway to spiritual realms, and I'm sure they are right, only unfortunately they don't grasp that if so, they are playing with demons.

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So, which is more parsimonious:

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1) That people taking acid are having hallucinations because they are messing around with their brain chemistry, or

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2) they are really seeing the walls melt, or angels, or demons, or shimmering bubbles everywhaere, or whatever people on acid see?

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Well the second idea is silly as NOBODY claims any of it is going on in the real physical world. But if someone described seeing an angel or demon under LSD I personally would consider the possibility of its being a real angel or demon, depending on the description given.

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Well as I just posted to someone else here, I've had hypnagogic experiences and these I describe above were not hypnagogic. Even the one with the apparition didn't have these characteristics although it did occur when I wasn't yet fully asleep, in the hypnagogic pre-sleep state.

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Right. It was associated with sleep.

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Yes, two of them. One deep sleep, the other drifting off.

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There was no paralysis, there was no pressure on the chest, I had no feeling of inability to speak or anything else, this was not a "feeling of an intruder" it was an actual apparition I actually saw,
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Sometimes the presence is experienced as friendly, or at least not malevolent.

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Yes, but you were the one who used the term "malevolent" as if that defined the state. I don't recall in past hypnagogic experiences anything except the paralysis and the scary frustration of not being able to move. But in none of these experiences was any of that a part of it.

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.. this was not just a feeling of dread without an object, it had a clear object. It was the same with the strangling experience -- no paralysis and none of the rest of it, simply the sensation of something gripping my throat, even a sensation of fingers digging in, but no paralysis, and no dread either, just the sudden fear of something real that had to be dealt with.

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Uh, I would consider a feeling of "sudden fear of something real that had to be dealt with" very similar to "dread".

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I was making a point of the distinction. The dread feeling has no object, it is a state of mind, a pure feeling without anything you can say you're afraid OF unless it's the feeling of paralysis that goes with those states. But this fear was like normal fear, of something actually happening, something sudden and startling, something you have to respond to.

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Also, you say you had this feeling of being choked. Did you sit up, struggle, try to remove the fingers from your neck with your own hands, or try to get away, or did you just lie there? If you just lay there, perhaps it was because you couldn't move?

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That could be but that's not how I recall it. I knew there was nobody there soon as I opened my eyes. I simply prayed. If I moved I don't remember, but I also don't remember feeling like I couldn't. I do remember trying to say the words about the blood of Christ out loud but not being able to get them out and being very relieved that I could think them clearly and that stopped the strangling sensation. But again, I've had the experience of hypnagogic paralysis at other times in my life and in itself it's rather scary, but it was never accompanied by any of this phenomena I am describing here and this phenomena wasn't accompanied by any of the usual hypnagogic stuff or at least I didn't notice it. However, I would still interpret it as a state in which one is unusually open to experiencing spiritual phenomena. I really do NOT believe, however, that one can hallucinate voices with such clarity or see apparitions with such clarity and they not be real.Hallucinations have something about them that you can tell is not real. Like hearing voices in the running water of a shower -- that's just the mind organizing the sound of the water into voices, and it's pretty obvious, like seeing faces in blotches on the wall and that sort of thing. Add LSD and a blotch-face may move around and even appear to say something, but that's still your mind. But actually hearing a distinct voice in a quiet room speak a clear sentence and be able to describe it as I have? Have the tests you talk about ever made that happen?

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Did you wake up with bruises on your neck from the fingers "digging in"?

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No, although I have heard that such things do happen with demon spirits sometimes.

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I've had that "nameless dread" feeling and the paralysis of the hypnagogic state too but NONE of these experiences had that quality to them.
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Well, then I would say that you have a propensity to have these hallucinations in many different flavors.

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Well I never did until I got involved in the occult. Kind of hard to avoid that connection. I was INTENSELY into oracles and psychic phenomena and the like.

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My husband had these kinds of experiences fairly frequently in his twenties, and some were frightening and some were fun.

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The times I heard voices I was awake and using my mind, not even half asleep, and none of those experiences listed were part of it.

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But you were in bed, right? It's pretty difficult to self judge one's stage of awakeness if you've been in bed for any length of time.

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Sure, but again I would simply interpret that state of mind as openness to spiritual contact. But one of the times I wasn't in bed, was up praying for that woman when I heard her voice so loudly. Not at all asleep, not in bed, etc.

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I do think however that the twilight state is more open to such experiences. If we are spiritual beings, why wouldn't it make sense that some states would be more open to such influences than others? How could you possibly test to know for sure which was which -- a purely mental creation or something external?
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We can induce these hallucinations.

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I seriously doubt you can induce anything like what I am describing.

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You can't show us any spirits.

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Therefore, the most likely explanation is that they are a product of the brain and there is no need to invoke any kind of superstitious or magical explanations at all.

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I can't show you something that is by its nature invisible, I can't make the invisible visible, therefore we must conclude that there are no invisible beings, right? Ain't that called begging the question? Thinking in a circle?This message has been edited by Faith, 04-17-2005 04:17 PM

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I can't show you something that is by its nature invisible, I can't make the invisible visible, therefore we must conclude that there are no invisible beings, right?
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No we conclude that there is no evidence for those invisible beings.

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That would be fine except that you DO take the next step of concluding that there are none from this lack of evidence. If you simply recognized that there is no way to have any physical evidence then the question would remain open, but it doesn't appear to.However, again, there's a ton of historical evidence, witness evidence. Just no physical evidence. Historical evidence is messy and needs careful sorting, but it's nevertheless evidence.

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As for your experience - Maybe you are mentally ill?

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Sure, why not? If you think so.

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Santa is not considered by anyone ever to be real.
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Certainly he is. By children. Oh, they don't count, I guess, only the adults who are "modern" people who consider themselves above all that.

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Well, the point was that ADULTS have believed in demons going way back. Children believe in Santa but adults don't, and children believe because they are told Santa is real, not because they have experienced Santa, but the adults who believe in demons have experienced demons or what they consider to be demons. It really is a whole nother subject.

Excuse me for not taking children into account. I was thinking of adult belief only.

I wish I knew what you were saying but it's going over my head. Sounds intriguing.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-17-2005 04:38 PM

Well, both of you guys are over my head, but carry on. Maybe I'll get some of it eventually.-------
I know there are demons but I really really really do not want to see one. I'm not sure I could stand the shock of seeing a real angel either but I know I can do without seeing a real demon. An apparition is enough already, but at least it looked like a human being.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-17-2005 05:03 PM

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I can't show you something that is by its nature invisible, I can't make the invisible visible, therefore we must conclude that there are no invisible beings, right?
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No we conclude that there is no evidence for those invisible beings.
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That would be fine except that you DO take the next step of concluding that there are none from this lack of evidence. If you simply recognized that there is no way to have any physical evidence then the question would remain open, but it doesn't appear to. // However, again, there's a ton of historical evidence, witness evidence...
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No I don't conclude there is no way of obtaining physical evidence - how can I without seeing the future?

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But NOW there is no physical evidence to be had and the point is that presumably that should leave the question open about the reality of invisible spirits since there's no way to judge.

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Maybe 100 years in the future it will turn out that they are odd EMC distortions or something like that, who know?

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And maybe you'll encounter a spirit being in the future and need to rethink a few things, who knows?