Existence of Demons (and Angels)

In my opinion, they are all just tricks of the mind that occasionally allow people to exceed what they think are their physical or mental limits. In other words, a man who believes he is possessed by a demon thinks the demon makes him commit murder (thus exceeding his moral limit on killing other people); conversely, in Mike's example, a fireman finds the strength to save himself after believing that he saw an angel who helped him.I find the notion of demons and angels distasteful, personally. It's essentially a cop-out. Saying "a demon made me do it" is trying to avoid responsibility for one's actions, and saying "an angel helped me" is attributing inner strength and heroism to some mythical entity.The Rockhound{edited to non-admin mode)This message has been edited by AdminIRH, 12-06-2004 01:20 PM

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I agree that it is cheap to use demons as an excuse, so that's why I don't, and that's why that argument holds absolutely no weight for me.

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Fair enough. I was not referring directly to you however; I was merely stating how such an action would appear to me.

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As for "attributing [one's own] inner strength and heroism" to a "mythical entity", That viewpoint stems directly from arrogancy. I propose to you that YOU are attributing what very well may be supernatural help to someone's "inner strength". Call me cynical of you will, but there is no "inner strength" all my strength comes from God-- there is nothing outside of Him.

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Arrogance? I think not. I am stating the obvious - I see no evidence for supernatural entities that might supply help, so I am left with the inevitable conclusion that people simply think that such help comes from them, when in fact it actually comes from they themselves. Yes, this is a cynical viewpoint - but I prefer to believe in the real strength and heart of people here in this world, rather than some god from another religion and his supposed servants.It would be like believing that magical purple fairies can help me jump higher or run faster. To me, at least, it's nonsensical.The Rockhound{edited to fix grammar yet again}This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 12-07-2004 01:03 PM

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Personally, I would feel more comfortable attributing some credit to a force or entity greater than myself. I am not the Creator/definer of this universe, nor will I or any human ever be.

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Suit yourself. I prefer to believe that someday humanity will be the creator/definer of universes This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 12-07-2004 01:05 PM

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You may have not intended it to be so, but this is a blatant mockery of my personal beliefs, and, more importantly, a direct mockery of God.

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How? That I expressed my opinion? I did not intend to mock your beliefs, merely to demonstrate how they appear to me. You are free to believe what you choose - but don't expect your beliefs to get any special treatment from me if you bring them into the discussion.In any case, I couldn't care less if my statement was a mockery of your god. I am not beholden to him and his opinion means nothing to me.

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God is the supreme, all-powerful being, the designer and creator of all, and most importantly, He is my Father, my King, and my friend. Maybe if you had personal experience that told you that these "faeries" could help you, I would be slightly more inclined to accept such an analogy, but you just made up some random thing off the top of your head, with no basis or foundation.

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So what? He is all that to you, not me. As far as I'm concerned he might as well be a purple fairy; that is the analogy I was making. I equally do not believe that angels, the Christian god or purple fairies will help me in times of need.

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This strength I speak of is not physical strength, though God can, and at times, has granted that to me. It is the strength to fight temptations, to fight agains my own sinful nature and against the demons that try to tempt me. It is the strength to carry on when I have absolutely nothing left, to live another day when I feel like I have nothing left to live for. So am I delusional? Maybe. But whether or not I am does not change the fact that God is real and working in my life and the lives of other believers around me each and every day.

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"And Jesus answered and said to them, 'Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, "Be taken up and cast into the sea," it will happen.'" Matthew 21:21

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And, yes, I believe that this is true-- completely and literally.

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Ok, stop quoting scripture at me. I don't need or want to be converted, I'm not likely to read it anyway, and you don't have to prove to me that you believe in your god and he is the centre of your world and all that. If some one says that they are Christian, I assume that they are 100% believers.You don't have to explain it, and I don't care in any case. Let's stick to the topic - my opinion of angels and demons are as I said before, and yours is as you said before.The Rockhound{edited out of admin-mode}This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 12-08-2004 11:35 AM

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Let me know as soon as you have acquired the strength to create new universes or been able to define the natural laws of one-- I'd like to see that.

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Not a forward-looking thinker then... I said 'humanity', and 'some day'.I don't expect us to be able to do it tomorrow, and I find it annoying that you misconstrued my post to mean something nonsensical.This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 12-08-2004 11:36 AM

Sorry about the late reply - I've been having Internet problems.I feel you missed the point of my post - I was stating my opinion, based on my observations of the current rate of technological advance, that someday it is not unrealistic to assume that humanity will be able to manipulate the natural laws of this universe, or indeed create entirely new ones. I, of course, have no proof for this; it is only an opinion after all, based on my own experience.I understand your point about the breaking of rules, but I did not suggest that it would occur (I wonder how I could have seeing as my post was so short).I feel I understand your points very well. In what way have I misunderstood?The RockhoundThis message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 12-11-2004 01:36 PM

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You suggested in your previous post (earlier on in this duscussion) that the breaking of rules might occur, not specifically in just the post I was directly replying to.

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I wonder how I did, because I certainly didn't mean to. I knew already that which you pointed out in your post - that when we appear to break the rules, it is because we lack a better understanding of exactly what the rules are.But this is off-topic. Back to the discussion...

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Firstly, the reason I was including scripture is that I often like to end my post in a verse, not necessarily to prove my point, but just because I like to incorporate scripture into everything I do (In other words, it is not an integral part of my argument, its just something I stuck on there cause I liked it). Secondly, I'll quote as much scripture as I like- I'm not asking you to read it, but if I want to quote it, who are you to tell me not to?

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And no, I don't have to prove anything to you. God knows it already and that's all that's important to me.

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I'm sorry for seeming so abrupt. People have tried to convert me before by quoting scripture at me, and it left a permanent bad taste in my mouth.Generally, people quote in order to support something they have stated. Otherwise it is off-topic and shouldn't be included in the thread. I don't know or care enough about the bible to argue coherently, so in either case scripture is a dead end for me.As long as I know you post it because you like to (not because you're evangelising or witnessing or something) I won't mind. I can skip over the preachy bits. The Rockhound