Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 81 (8972 total)
184 online now:
14174dm, jar, kjsimons, PaulK, Tangle (5 members, 179 visitors)
Newest Member: Howyoudo
Post Volume: Total: 875,397 Year: 7,145/23,288 Month: 1,051/1,214 Week: 63/303 Day: 24/39 Hour: 0/6


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Existence of Demons (and Angels)
Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 303 (163486)
11-27-2004 12:13 PM


I was wondering what people thought about the existence of demons and angels, and their interactions with our daily lives. This is a topic that has been of interest to me for a very long time, and I have done a lot of reading and researching about it.

I believe that demons and angels are very real, and they are constantly influencing our daily lives whether we know it or not. A few of my more philosophical friends and I have come to the conclusion (not set in stone, of course) that demons do not actually posess anyone, i.e. they don't come take over someone's body and force them to do something, but they can go as far as having a complete but indirect control over someone by completely invading their mind and influencing them to do things.

I do not personally know anyone who has physically seen demons (I know OF people who have, and I could name a few), but I can sense demons as if they were physically there (basically, I can sense them as well as if I was physically seeing them, without actually seeing them). I also know my friend has seen demons in his mind, and he thought nothing of them until he saw a drawing made by some satanist and he could recognize the demons in the drawing.

A couple books I have read that pertain to demons are This Present Darkness by Frank Peretti (and the rest of that series), The Screwtape Letters by Clives Staples Lewis (both of these books are novels-- I don't put too much weight on Peretti's book, I put a good amount on Lewis', but not as much as on nonfiction), and Spirit of the Rainforest by Mark Andrew Ritchie (nonfiction, a great book).

Spirit of the Rainforest is one of the books I place the most weight on in my personal philosophy dealing with demons. It is actually written by a Yanomamö (Amazon native tribe) shaman named Jungleman, and Ritchie translated, transcribled, and compiled it. The book describes the shamans' interactions with demons in graphic detail, and really shed some light on some of the finer aspects of the demons and their influence. The shaman each have their own demons that they always talk to, and they physically see them. In fact, some shaman apprently had trouble telling the real world from the spiritual one at times. It is a very good book for anyone interested in this subject.


Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by coffee_addict, posted 11-27-2004 12:48 PM Xenocrates has responded
 Message 11 by Buzsaw, posted 12-06-2004 12:56 AM Xenocrates has not yet responded
 Message 35 by PecosGeorge, posted 12-08-2004 3:34 PM Xenocrates has not yet responded

AdminJazzlover
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 303 (163492)
11-27-2004 12:35 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

AdminJazzlover
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 303 (163493)
11-27-2004 12:38 PM


This one is bit spread out but lets give it a go.


Yo soy BoriCua Pa Que tu lo Sepas

coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3627
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 4 of 303 (163495)
11-27-2004 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Xenocrates
11-27-2004 12:13 PM


Just so you know, we EvC-ers put more credence into the reasonings behind the beliefs than the beliefs themselves. All I see in your posts are a blob of beliefs with nothing for us to work on. Allow me to rephrase what you said.

quote:
I was wondering what people thought about the existence of demons and angels, and their interactions with our daily lives. This is a topic that has been of interest to me for a very long time, and I have done a lot of reading and researching about it.

I am interested in the topic of demons and angels.

quote:
I believe that demons and angels are very real, and they are constantly influencing our daily lives whether we know it or not. A few of my more philosophical friends and I have come to the conclusion (not set in stone, of course) that demons do not actually posess anyone, i.e. they don't come take over someone's body and force them to do something, but they can go as far as having a complete but indirect control over someone by completely invading their mind and influencing them to do things.

I believe in demons and angels, and I believe that they interact with our daily lives.

quote:
I do not personally know anyone who has physically seen demons (I know OF people who have, and I could name a few), but I can sense demons as if they were physically there (basically, I can sense them as well as if I was physically seeing them, without actually seeing them). I also know my friend has seen demons in his mind, and he thought nothing of them until he saw a drawing made by some satanist and he could recognize the demons in the drawing.

I don't have any evidence but I have a lot of hearsays.

quote:
A couple books I have read that pertain to demons are This Present Darkness by Frank Peretti (and the rest of that series), The Screwtape Letters by Clives Staples Lewis (both of these books are novels-- I don't put too much weight on Peretti's book, I put a good amount on Lewis', but not as much as on nonfiction), and Spirit of the Rainforest by Mark Andrew Ritchie (nonfiction, a great book).

This book by Pertti is interesting...

quote:
Spirit of the Rainforest is one of the books I place the most weight on in my personal philosophy dealing with demons. It is actually written by a Yanomamö (Amazon native tribe) shaman named Jungleman, and Ritchie translated, transcribled, and compiled it. The book describes the shamans' interactions with demons in graphic detail, and really shed some light on some of the finer aspects of the demons and their influence. The shaman each have their own demons that they always talk to, and they physically see them. In fact, some shaman apprently had trouble telling the real world from the spiritual one at times. It is a very good book for anyone interested in this subject.

Yup, the book is interesting to me...

Do you see where I am coming from? You haven't given us anything specific to work on.

You can start by telling us some examples you know of that might give credence to your belief and we can go from there.

By the way, this thread shouldn't have been approved in the first place. We already have 2 other active threads on the topic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Xenocrates, posted 11-27-2004 12:13 PM Xenocrates has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Xenocrates, posted 11-27-2004 2:50 PM coffee_addict has responded

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 303 (163501)
11-27-2004 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by coffee_addict
11-27-2004 12:48 PM


Well, firstly, I intended this to be more of a philosphical discussion than a scientific one, as is appropriate for this topic. The evidence I am presenting right now is philosophical and based partly on personal experience and firsthand accounts of others with personal experience (I'll get some more information on these a bit later- I have to talk to some people to make sure I don't butcher anything they said).

I guess I can elaborate on the book Spirit of the Rainforest and the evidence contained within it. One of the main points of this book is that Jungleman and the other shaman knew about demons and had names for them and everything a long time before they were influenced by any modern culture (they hadn't come into any contact with the Bible or even with other non-Indians before). My point here is if demons and such are made up by men, how do these shaman not only know these demons but use them (basically cast spells)? They used these demons to kill people, specifically children, in other villages.

They also knew about God, who they called Yai Wana Naba Laywa (I forget the exact translation, but it's something about a spirit foreign to them/ their enemy), but started calling Him Yai Pada after the missionaries came (roughly means great creator spirit). When the missionaries described God and the demons to the shaman, the shaman recognized what they were talking about, and felt their demons fighting against what the missionaries were telling them.

And I apologize if this is a repeat of other topics-- I looked through the current topics, and I found some that were different enough to start a new topic-- I may have missed or overlooked one or two.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by coffee_addict, posted 11-27-2004 12:48 PM coffee_addict has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by coffee_addict, posted 11-27-2004 3:25 PM Xenocrates has not yet responded
 Message 7 by Demosthenes Fan, posted 12-05-2004 7:44 PM Xenocrates has not yet responded

coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3627
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 6 of 303 (163504)
11-27-2004 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Xenocrates
11-27-2004 2:50 PM


Xenocrates writes:

Well, firstly, I intended this to be more of a philosphical discussion than a scientific one...


Trust me, you will still need to present some sort of evidence if this is to be a philosophical discussion (I am a philosophy minor).

The evidence I am presenting right now is philosophical and based partly on personal experience and firsthand accounts of others with personal experience (I'll get some more information on these a bit later- I have to talk to some people to make sure I don't butcher anything they said).

Well, I see no evidence at all, whether it is philosophical or scientific. It is ok for you to present personal experience and firsthand accounts, but at least be specific. You can't just say, "I know this guy that saw blah blah blah..." If you want this thread to go somewhere, describe what he saw and present possibilities that might explain what he saw. Again, we need something to work with otherwise there's nothing for anyone to discuss about.

They also knew about God, who they called Yai Wana Naba Laywa (I forget the exact translation, but it's something about a spirit foreign to them/ their enemy), but started calling Him Yai Pada after the missionaries came (roughly means great creator spirit). When the missionaries described God and the demons to the shaman, the shaman recognized what they were talking about, and felt their demons fighting against what the missionaries were telling them.

Again, this is way too general. It looks more like a gossip or hearsay than actually first hand experience. At least describe what the demons look like or something. Right now, there is nothing for anyone to discuss about.

And I apologize if this is a repeat of other topics-- I looked through the current topics, and I found some that were different enough to start a new topic-- I may have missed or overlooked one or two.

Ok, but you still need to be specific. Tell us where you want to go with this.


Hate world.

Revenge soon!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Xenocrates, posted 11-27-2004 2:50 PM Xenocrates has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by mike the wiz, posted 12-05-2004 8:36 PM coffee_addict has not yet responded

Demosthenes Fan
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 303 (165490)
12-05-2004 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Xenocrates
11-27-2004 2:50 PM


The personal testimony of Shaman, who often use entheogens such as DMT or Salvia plants in order to “see and communicate with spirits” is not in any way, in my opinion, to be considered as empirical evidence. People that use these mind altering dugs often report the seeing of aliens, monkey-people, and yes, even demons, immediately after taking such a psychoactive. I have to agree with Lam, there’s not much to run with here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Xenocrates, posted 11-27-2004 2:50 PM Xenocrates has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Coragyps, posted 12-08-2004 5:01 PM Demosthenes Fan has not yet responded

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4686
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 8 of 303 (165499)
12-05-2004 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by coffee_addict
11-27-2004 3:25 PM


I saw a program where a fireman testified that he was saved by an angel. He said he was trapped in a building, and because obviously - he had experience, he sat down as he was tired, and trapped, - and he basically said that he just accepted it was over, and just waited to die. Then, he saw a light, and it grew brighter - and became an angel. Female variety aswell - the best kind. . Anyway, she pointed out a way through to a door amongst the smoke and he stumbled out o' there.

Ofcourse - I can't remember the program, it was on discovery channel. If you watch discovery for the next half-century, it might come on again.

I suggest a full reading of my Hypothesis of consciousness which actually proves God exists. Message #6 and #15 prove God exists. Here it is, un-refuted.

This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 12-05-2004 08:40 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by coffee_addict, posted 11-27-2004 3:25 PM coffee_addict has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by lfen, posted 12-05-2004 9:53 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 10 by Xenocrates, posted 12-06-2004 12:38 AM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2004 2:58 AM mike the wiz has responded

lfen
Member (Idle past 3184 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 9 of 303 (165510)
12-05-2004 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by mike the wiz
12-05-2004 8:36 PM


I suggest a full reading of my Hypothesis of consciousness which actually proves God exists. Message #6 and #15 prove God exists. Here it is, un-refuted.

Mike,

Your enthusiastic naivete can be endearing. Reminds me when I was in high school and me and some friends would try to trisect a angle, or square a circle or create a map that required 5 areas adjacent.

But sorry Mike, you have not actually proved God exists. And as the author of this proof you need to be the one to state how it can be falsified. The biggest problem you have is that your definitions are so ambiguous that it's not clear what you are or aren't proving. But mostly your claims about systems are not supported. I mean I could say something like, if striped animals exist there must be a god, and see there are tigers and zebras so god must exist. But there is nothing inevitable about my premise. You haven't shown systems have purpose, let alone that purpose can only be bestowed by designer.

I'm afraid your proof is not a proof. It only sort of resembles a proof. So it's not been refuted because you can't refute a proof that isn't a proof you can only point out that it's not a proof. Which I've just done.

Much work lies ahead for you with the concepts of purpose, function, system, design, designer.

I do encourage you to get some books on the proof of God's existence and keep studying. You can learn a lot struggling with this material. But you've only begun so don't count your chickens before they hatch!

lfen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by mike the wiz, posted 12-05-2004 8:36 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 303 (165525)
12-06-2004 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by mike the wiz
12-05-2004 8:36 PM


I'm afraid I have to agree with Ifen on this one; you don't have conclusive proof that God exists, and from a strictly scientific standpoint, I don't believe you ever will. I think that you must be careful trying to prove God's existence. This ultimately comes at least partly from the desire of humans to put God in a box, so to speak. In other words, the attemp to conclusively prove God's existence through scientific logic is trying to control God- to limit Him, if you will. God does not work in logical ways, and the supernatural can never be explained scientifically. Science cannot explain much of what I have experienced in the past few months.

Now, I am not innocent of this either-- I sometimes myself try to "prove" the existence of God, but I just have to remember to rely on faith and not on my own understanding. As Proverbs 3:5 says, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding." I have heard some pretty outstanding philosophical arguments for the existence of a higher power, and for God (which I would enjoy sharing in a different thread, or even by e-mail, if you are interested in hearing some), but even those are not conclusive.

You cannot prove God-- If you could, then faith would have no place in this world. God wants his people to know him by faith, and until the day I see Him face to face, that will be enough for me.

As for the subject of demons, I apologize for taking so long on that-- I am working on getting several first-person accounts together. I will post those as soon as I can (it might take a bit longer to get that all together).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by mike the wiz, posted 12-05-2004 8:36 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 12-06-2004 5:46 PM Xenocrates has not yet responded
 Message 50 by Angeldust, posted 03-02-2005 3:49 PM Xenocrates has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 303 (165527)
12-06-2004 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Xenocrates
11-27-2004 12:13 PM


You'll Never See Them
I do not personally know anyone who has physically seen demons (I know OF people who have, and I could name a few), but I can sense demons as if they were physically there (basically, I can sense them as well as if I was physically seeing them, without actually seeing them). I also know my friend has seen demons in his mind, and he thought nothing of them until he saw a drawing made by some satanist and he could recognize the demons in the drawing.

Hi Zenocrates. Welcome! According to the Biblical account, demons are spirits who have the need and desire to dwell in living things, like animals and people. So if you're looking for demons, perse, you won't find them. When you look at certain weird acting animals or people, you my, I say may be looking at a living body in which a supernatural entity dwells.

If you look at any given true Holy Spirit born Christian you are also looking at a living body in which a supernatural entity dwells according to the Bible. See I Corinthians 3:16 and especially I Corinthians 6:19 "Know you not that your bodies are the temples of God........"

Also according to the Bible, you may be looking at what you believe to be a person and may be, in fact, looking at a supernatural angel from God. This kind of thing happened to a number of people in the OT and angels appeared Elizabeth and Mary in the NT, but if I recall correctly, I believe they didn't look like humans. Possibly because having the indwelling Holy Spirit and the Biblical cannon, there is not the need for angelic messengers from God. Jesus appeared to folks after his resurrection as a supernatural entity, moving through walls and obfuscating his appearance on occasions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Xenocrates, posted 11-27-2004 12:13 PM Xenocrates has not yet responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 16185
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 12 of 303 (165543)
12-06-2004 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by mike the wiz
12-05-2004 8:36 PM


quote:

I suggest a full reading of my Hypothesis of consciousness which actually proves God exists. Message #6 and #15 prove God exists. Here it is, un-refuted.

It isn't a proof - its still too unclear exactly what the premises means. As can be seen from the thread various criticisms were raised and unanswered. Also the truth of the premises was ruled off-topic - but for the argument to actually work the truth of the premises would be very much in doubt.

Let's sum it up:
1) The premises as presented were ambiguous and the logical structure of much of the argument unclear. Bit these pints disqualify it as a proof.

2) The premises were likely vacuous or false (since we don't know what they mean none of the critics can say which !). Showing either would constitute a reutation although the second case was not permitted in the thread.

These points were raised in the thread so you can't say that you are unaware of them.

So it isn't a proof, and if you were to finish the argument to the point where it could be considered one it would probably be refuted in short order.

And please can you explain why, given that you lost interest in your own argument before actually clearing up all the major problems, you actually have the nerve to call it a "proof" and state that it is "unrefuted" ? I mean, if you thought that you really did have a valid proof wouldn't you have actually gone on to finish it instead of abandoning it in such a poor state ?

If you eally think that your argument is any good then I suggest you start a new thread to discuss it - you can start with posting a version of the argument which deals with the actual points raised. And with a new thread we can freely discuss the truth of the premises.

This message has been edited by PaulK, 12-06-2004 03:01 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by mike the wiz, posted 12-05-2004 8:36 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 12-06-2004 6:25 AM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 14 by mike the wiz, posted 12-06-2004 8:09 AM PaulK has responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 13918
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 13 of 303 (165568)
12-06-2004 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
12-06-2004 2:58 AM


Existence of Demons(and Angels)
Lets keep our focus on the Demons and the Angels. I have had experiences which lead me to believe that these entities COULD exist, and personally thought so, yet I cannot prove my hypothesis to any general public satisfaction. How many of you have had a supernatural encounter?(or thought that you did?)

Here again is our Topic starter:

Xenocrates writes:

I was wondering what people thought about the existence of demons and angels, and their interactions with our daily lives. This is a topic that has been of interest to me for a very long time, and I have done a lot of reading and researching about it.

(edited for clarity by adminPhat)

1) I believe that demons and angels are very real, and they are constantly influencing our daily lives whether we know it or not.
2) I do not personally know anyone who has physically seen demons (I know OF people who have, and I could name a few), but I can sense demons as if they were physically there
3) Spirit of the Rainforest is one of the books I place the most weight on in my personal philosophy dealing with demons.

Xenocrates has read some good books on the subject. This topic is similar to our other topic,

Spirits and other incorporial things
But as this one is new, lets keep our focus on the possibility of the existance of Demons and Angels. Much has been written about them. Any comments?

This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 12-06-2004 04:48 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2004 2:58 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-06-2004 8:49 AM Phat has responded

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4686
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 14 of 303 (165582)
12-06-2004 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
12-06-2004 2:58 AM


Paul, in fairness to me, nobody refuted my argument - you yourself practically admitt this by saying it was deemed off-topic.

However, I am not ignorant of the points raised, and have been researching my premises and their factual basis. You raised good points but I haven't made my hypothesis complete yet. But the basics are in that thread, and I believe I atleast think you can grasp the premises, and what they mean if you read carefully.

When my knowledge is complete I will make a thread called Hypothesis of consciousness. I am aware that syllogisms are not very fruitful - which is why I endeavour to fully explain my premises and make falsifiables aswell as verifiables.

This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 12-08-2004 12:08 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2004 2:58 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2004 8:45 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 16185
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 15 of 303 (165588)
12-06-2004 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by mike the wiz
12-06-2004 8:09 AM


Well if the admins forbade any line of critiicsm that could refute your argument then to call it "unrefuted" is misleading unless it is qualified.

Perhaps you could also get around to answering my message 28 which is really necessary to understand the premises of even your revised argument (and to understand the question of whether the universe is a system).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by mike the wiz, posted 12-06-2004 8:09 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020