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Author Topic:   Existence of Demons (and Angels)
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 16 of 303 (165590)
12-06-2004 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
12-06-2004 6:25 AM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
In my opinion, they are all just tricks of the mind that occasionally allow people to exceed what they think are their physical or mental limits. In other words, a man who believes he is possessed by a demon thinks the demon makes him commit murder (thus exceeding his moral limit on killing other people); conversely, in Mike's example, a fireman finds the strength to save himself after believing that he saw an angel who helped him.
I find the notion of demons and angels distasteful, personally. It's essentially a cop-out. Saying "a demon made me do it" is trying to avoid responsibility for one's actions, and saying "an angel helped me" is attributing inner strength and heroism to some mythical entity.
The Rockhound
{edited to non-admin mode)
This message has been edited by AdminIRH, 12-06-2004 01:20 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 12-06-2004 6:25 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Xenocrates, posted 12-06-2004 6:59 PM IrishRockhound has replied
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 12-06-2004 9:20 PM IrishRockhound has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 17 of 303 (165731)
12-06-2004 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Xenocrates
12-06-2004 12:38 AM


I think it doesn't matter if my argument was sound. Atheists desire to refute it even if it doesn't have holes. So, yes - I'm not trying to box God, but I was responding to a challenge that says no logical support of theism is possible. Which is nonsense IMHO.
If the atheist chooses to gnore the complete prophetic bible of truth, and all the prophecies of the bible we have proved on this forum then that's up to them. I even suggested extra-biblical sources to Dan and he denied the truth of Christ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Xenocrates, posted 12-06-2004 12:38 AM Xenocrates has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by mike the wiz, posted 12-06-2004 6:53 PM mike the wiz has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 18 of 303 (165749)
12-06-2004 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by mike the wiz
12-06-2004 5:46 PM


Also - concerning my Hypothesis of consciousness - I notice that it comes back to trying to show how mike is wrong logically, when no refutation can be had. I suggest you read it, it's amusing. "mike - your argument's logically correct"......*disgruntlement*......."mike, your argument's illogical"........*disgruntlemen*...."mike - your argument is logical"........*takes things personally*..."mike - your argument is illogical".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 12-06-2004 5:46 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 303 (165752)
12-06-2004 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by IrishRockhound
12-06-2004 8:49 AM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
(I apologize if the following quote wasn't copied accurately- the copy/paste on my computer gave up on me for some reason so I had to type the quote in manually)
IrishRockhound writes:
I find the notion of demons and angels distasteful, personally. It's essentially a cop-out. Saying "a demon made me do it" is trying to avoid responsibility for one's actions, and saying "an angel helped me" is attributing inner strength and heroism to some mythical entity.
Firstly, yes, many people do use demons as a cop-out, but even the fact that demons influence our everyday lives is no excuse for immoral/wrong behavior. Personally, as a Christian, I take full responsibility for any sins I commit, because I know that if I go to God, He will give me the strength to overcome whatever anyone or anything throws at me. I am fully accountable to God and to a fellow Chritian (a specific one) for every single action I make. I agree that it is cheap to use demons as an excuse, so that's why I don't, and that's why that argument holds absolutely no weight for me.
As for "attributing [one's own] inner strength and heroism" to a "mythical entity", That viewpoint stems directly from arrogancy. I propose to you that YOU are attributing what very well may be supernatural help to someone's "inner strength". Call me cynical of you will, but there is no "inner strength" all my strength comes from God-- there is nothing outside of Him. I rely on God and on God alone for all the strength I need each and every day. Well, more accurately, I should say I try to rely on His strength, but, like everyone, I sometimes fail, and at those times, I am left weak and helpless because I have not relied on my only source of strength.
"The Lord is my strength and my shield; my heart trusts in Him, and I am helped." --Psalm 28:7a

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-06-2004 8:49 AM IrishRockhound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-07-2004 1:02 PM Xenocrates has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 303 (165772)
12-06-2004 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by IrishRockhound
12-06-2004 8:49 AM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
IRH writes:
I find the notion of demons and angels distasteful, personally. It's essentially a cop-out. Saying "a demon made me do it" is trying to avoid responsibility for one's actions, and saying "an angel helped me" is attributing inner strength and heroism to some mythical entity.
Personally, I would feel more comfortable attributing some credit to a force or entity greater than myself. I am not the Creator/definer of this universe, nor will I or any human ever be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-06-2004 8:49 AM IrishRockhound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-07-2004 1:05 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 27 by Xenocrates, posted 12-07-2004 11:54 PM Phat has replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 21 of 303 (165839)
12-07-2004 3:08 AM


Well, if we`re going anecdotal, I can tell stories of a few demon fast bowlers in the Aussie Test cricket team, who cast spells on batsmen from other countries.

IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 22 of 303 (165909)
12-07-2004 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Xenocrates
12-06-2004 6:59 PM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
quote:
I agree that it is cheap to use demons as an excuse, so that's why I don't, and that's why that argument holds absolutely no weight for me.
Fair enough. I was not referring directly to you however; I was merely stating how such an action would appear to me.
quote:
As for "attributing [one's own] inner strength and heroism" to a "mythical entity", That viewpoint stems directly from arrogancy. I propose to you that YOU are attributing what very well may be supernatural help to someone's "inner strength". Call me cynical of you will, but there is no "inner strength" all my strength comes from God-- there is nothing outside of Him.
Arrogance? I think not. I am stating the obvious - I see no evidence for supernatural entities that might supply help, so I am left with the inevitable conclusion that people simply think that such help comes from them, when in fact it actually comes from they themselves. Yes, this is a cynical viewpoint - but I prefer to believe in the real strength and heart of people here in this world, rather than some god from another religion and his supposed servants.
It would be like believing that magical purple fairies can help me jump higher or run faster. To me, at least, it's nonsensical.
The Rockhound
{edited to fix grammar yet again}
This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 12-07-2004 01:03 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Xenocrates, posted 12-06-2004 6:59 PM Xenocrates has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Deathknight, posted 12-07-2004 11:47 PM IrishRockhound has not replied
 Message 25 by Xenocrates, posted 12-07-2004 11:49 PM IrishRockhound has replied

IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 23 of 303 (165910)
12-07-2004 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
12-06-2004 9:20 PM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
quote:
Personally, I would feel more comfortable attributing some credit to a force or entity greater than myself. I am not the Creator/definer of this universe, nor will I or any human ever be.
Suit yourself. I prefer to believe that someday humanity will be the creator/definer of universes
This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 12-07-2004 01:05 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 12-06-2004 9:20 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Xenocrates, posted 12-07-2004 11:51 PM IrishRockhound has replied

Deathknight
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 303 (166063)
12-07-2004 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by IrishRockhound
12-07-2004 1:02 PM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
Hey...don't talk about the magical purple faireis....they know all.......and show no mercy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-07-2004 1:02 PM IrishRockhound has not replied

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 303 (166064)
12-07-2004 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by IrishRockhound
12-07-2004 1:02 PM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
IrishRockHound writes:
It would be like believing that magical purple fairies can help me jump higher or run faster.
This shows that you are clearly not approaching this with an open mind by any means. I am willing to discuss this issue, but if you are being completely closed-minded, we will not get anywhere (sure, I'll try anyways). You may have not intended it to be so, but this is a blatant mockery of my personal beliefs, and, more importantly, a direct mockery of God. Yes, there have been times when I've had my doubts, but no one is perfect (myself least of all), and that's why I need Christ's redemption.
To directly address your analogy, no, it would be nothing like that, and yet everything like it. No, God is not "magic". No, I don't think God is purple. And God certainly isn't a faerie. God is the supreme, all-powerful being, the designer and creator of all, and most importantly, He is my Father, my King, and my friend. Maybe if you had personal experience that told you that these "faeries" could help you, I would be slightly more inclined to accept such an analogy, but you jsut made up some random thing off the top of your head, with no basis or foundation. There is a lot of foundation for believing that God exists, not the least of which is my own personal life experience. I know as a fact that I have no strength of my own to speak of. I know as a fact that God has helped me by giving me strength. Therefore, I know as a fact that God is real.
This strength I speak of is not physical strength, though God can, and at times, has granted that to me. It is the strength to fight temptations, to fight agains my own sinful nature and against the demons that try to tempt me. It is the strength to carry on when I have absolutely nothing left, to live another day when I feel like I have nothing left to live for. So am I delusional? Maybe. But whether or not I am does not change the fact that God is real and working in my life and the lives of other believers around me each and every day.
"And Jesus answered and said to them, 'Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, "Be taken up and cast into the sea," it will happen.'" Matthew 21:21
And, yes, I believe that this is true-- completely and literally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-07-2004 1:02 PM IrishRockhound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-08-2004 11:31 AM Xenocrates has replied

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 303 (166066)
12-07-2004 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by IrishRockhound
12-07-2004 1:05 PM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
IrishRockhound writes:
Suit yourself. I prefer to believe that someday humanity will be the creator/definer of universes
Let me know as soon as you have acquired the strength to create new universes or been able to define the natural laws of one-- I'd like to see that
This message has been edited by Xenocrates, 12-07-2004 11:52 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-07-2004 1:05 PM IrishRockhound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by IrishRockhound, posted 12-08-2004 11:34 AM Xenocrates has replied

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 303 (166067)
12-07-2004 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
12-06-2004 9:20 PM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
Phatboy writes:
Personally, I would feel more comfortable attributing some credit to a force or entity greater than myself.
What we feel comfortable with has no effect on reality-- we cannot change something by feeling uncomfortable or comfortable with it. What is is. I know this may not have been what you meant, but I thought I'd like to point that out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 12-06-2004 9:20 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 12-08-2004 12:39 AM Xenocrates has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 303 (166074)
12-08-2004 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Xenocrates
12-07-2004 11:54 PM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
First off, I would like to remind everyone that our topic should focus on Angels and Demons. Any other whimsical incorporeal entities can be discussed in the thread on incorporeal spirits.
Xenocrates, often in these forums you may experience a clash of the worldviews with others. To some, reality is an absolute. Truth is an absolute. As a believer, God is an absolute. This world view presupposes that God is real no matter what anyone else believes or thinks.
The contrary world view that you will meet states that truth is relative to the individual and that the entire universe is in fact relative, defined only by provable and verifiable natural laws which we learn more about each day. The yardstick of authority is human wisdom.
As believers, we will never convince relativists that our absolute values and beliefs are true. One consolation that you will find is that God, if He is alive, real, and omnipotant as we believe, will Himself orchestrate the establishment of His absolute presence and will so that every knee will indeed bow one way or another some day.
In the meantime, you and I need to learn how to coexist with those who believe entirely differently than we do. The victory is ours yet the battle is surely the Lords. I believe in Demons and I believe that we as humans deal with them occasionally. When you find yourself as a believer in a debate that causes you to lose your joy and your rational behavior, it could be that demons are directly or indirectly involved. It does not matter if everyone believes this or agrees with it. It only matters to you as a believer what is happening to you and how you can get your joy and security back.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Xenocrates, posted 12-07-2004 11:54 PM Xenocrates has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Xenocrates, posted 12-08-2004 12:54 AM Phat has not replied

Xenocrates
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 303 (166078)
12-08-2004 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
12-08-2004 12:39 AM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
Phatboy writes:
The contrary world view . . . states that . . . [the] yardstick of authority is human wisdom.
Yes, but on that same token, human wisdom is different than human comfort. I just thought that I would point out that what we feel comfortable with shouldn't matter from any worldview (as far as argument/discussion is concerned).
As for the rest of your post, that is very true, and it is something that I remind myself of daily. I do sometimes tend to come across as harsher or more pointed than I really intend to be, so try to remember to take that into account when you read my posts. I also tend to be a little forceful on certain points absolutely essential to my faith, because I feel that an attack on those is an attack on my faith, my most valuable posession (if you can call it that...).
"But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. 'Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened.' But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander." 1 Peter 3:14-16
This message has been edited by Xenocrates, 12-08-2004 12:55 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 12-08-2004 12:39 AM Phat has not replied

IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 30 of 303 (166213)
12-08-2004 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Xenocrates
12-07-2004 11:49 PM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
quote:
You may have not intended it to be so, but this is a blatant mockery of my personal beliefs, and, more importantly, a direct mockery of God.
How? That I expressed my opinion? I did not intend to mock your beliefs, merely to demonstrate how they appear to me. You are free to believe what you choose - but don't expect your beliefs to get any special treatment from me if you bring them into the discussion.
In any case, I couldn't care less if my statement was a mockery of your god. I am not beholden to him and his opinion means nothing to me.
quote:
God is the supreme, all-powerful being, the designer and creator of all, and most importantly, He is my Father, my King, and my friend. Maybe if you had personal experience that told you that these "faeries" could help you, I would be slightly more inclined to accept such an analogy, but you just made up some random thing off the top of your head, with no basis or foundation.
So what? He is all that to you, not me. As far as I'm concerned he might as well be a purple fairy; that is the analogy I was making. I equally do not believe that angels, the Christian god or purple fairies will help me in times of need.
quote:
This strength I speak of is not physical strength, though God can, and at times, has granted that to me. It is the strength to fight temptations, to fight agains my own sinful nature and against the demons that try to tempt me. It is the strength to carry on when I have absolutely nothing left, to live another day when I feel like I have nothing left to live for. So am I delusional? Maybe. But whether or not I am does not change the fact that God is real and working in my life and the lives of other believers around me each and every day.
"And Jesus answered and said to them, 'Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, "Be taken up and cast into the sea," it will happen.'" Matthew 21:21
And, yes, I believe that this is true-- completely and literally.
Ok, stop quoting scripture at me. I don't need or want to be converted, I'm not likely to read it anyway, and you don't have to prove to me that you believe in your god and he is the centre of your world and all that. If some one says that they are Christian, I assume that they are 100% believers.
You don't have to explain it, and I don't care in any case. Let's stick to the topic - my opinion of angels and demons are as I said before, and yours is as you said before.
The Rockhound
{edited out of admin-mode}
This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 12-08-2004 11:35 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Xenocrates, posted 12-07-2004 11:49 PM Xenocrates has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Xenocrates, posted 12-11-2004 2:26 PM IrishRockhound has replied

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