Is belief in God madness in a modern world?

No really, I'm sorry. I know it is hard to see these thngs. Keep trying. It took me a long time to understand this. Be patient.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

Don't reach too far my friend, they bite!

Ah, I am just attempting an objective view of morality, or; how our perceptions of the absolute are subject to our own glimpse of reality, with our moral 'cup' appearing either half full, or half empty, in relativity to our perceptions.

You're doing fine Anastasia. You're very thoughtful. But morality is already objective. I think you mean to say you are trying to objectively undertand the opposition point of view, and that's a different thing. You're giving them the benefit of the doubt and that's fine. This is difficult for everyone, even though it is so simple.Keep in mind this thread is not about morality; not directly!There's an old indian proverb that says, "you can touch your nose like this, or like this.' (use your imagination)What we're addressing here is logic (the law of non-contradiction), and particularly unaffirmability, and undeniabilty as a means of illustrating the saneness of a belief in the Biblical God.Natan Sharansky the former Israeli defense minister, said of Andrei Sakharov (a physicist who helped give the nuclear bomb to the USSR) while visiting his grave, that shortly before Sakharov died, he said, "I always thought that the most powerful weapon in the world was the bomb. I've changed my mind and now believe the most powerful weapon in the world is the truth!" (source- Ravi Zacharius, in an CD lecture 'The loss of Truth and a proposal for it's recovery')Anastasia, show mercy and love, by speaking boldy. Your adversary has no intention of coddling you.C.S. Lewis said, "To be ignorant and simple now - not to be able to meet the enemies on their own ground - would be to throw down our weapons, and to betray our uneducated brethren who have, under God, no defense but us against the intellectual attacks of the heathen. Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy needs to be answered. The cool intellect must work not only against cool intellect on the other side, but against the muddy heathen mysticisms which deny intellect altogether." (Lewis / Learning in War-Time 1949, pg51)

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Part of the original thread post too long for promoting http://EvC Forum: Is belief in God madness in a modern world? -->EvC Forum: Is belief in God madness in a modern world?

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If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

It's hard to do this nicely... I am trying. I went back and made some editing to my replies. God help me!

I don't think we can ever come to a conclusion. We are not equipped. Our standards of comparison and our field of vision are both far too limited.We have to assess moral 'improvement' or 'deterioriation' according to our limited (and biased) standards, as you say. That's leaving aside completely the consideration that many adult moral choices are, in fact, tradeoffs.We also have to assess this according to our ability to see the overall picture, which no one can. We are just not in a position to say. Without the ability to see into every human heart no one knows. Without knowing what kind of person every infant in the world will grow up to be no one knows. People are born into this world every day who must learn all the age-old lessons afresh. Each one of them has to eat of the tree of knowledge, lose the garden paradise all over again, and make choices in the aftermath. How can you tally something that is far too big to see? Especially when it is, of necessity, a fluid, fluxuating tally?It remains worth noting, as people have here, that many longstanding systemic evils in human society have been eradicated in the last millennium, or at least put to flight. Too often we fail to take account of things that have gone well and disasters that have been avoided. But we are speaking of the progress made by society historically in such cases, not the core integrity of the individuals that compose the society right now.It's remains also worth noting, as people have here, that fundamentalists of the Jesus-is-coming-back-to-earth-next-Tuesday-after-lunch variety have an a priori interest in representing the situation as getting worse. They don't really see the world getting worse becauae the question, for them as for everyone else, is too big to answer. They look at the world through the filter of what they have been told to expect and what they want. They don't want to be part of any old generation that dies as all have done while the world goes on spinning. They want to be special. They want to be a generation unlike any that has gone before, one that will be whisked straightway off to glory without the unwelcome experience of dying. It's a narcissistic vision: to be the goal of all history. Grandiose aims like that are hard to protect. Those who hold them must filter the evidence thoroughly. They cannot afford to keep an open mind.That's why for me questions like 'Is the world getting better or worse?' fall into the same category as questions like 'What would the world be like if Japan had won the Battle of Midway?' They are interesting to bat around in a conversation for the purpose of gaining fresh perspectives. But no one knows.__Edited by Archer Opterix, : tinkering.Edited by Archer Opterix, : clarity.Edited by Archer Opterix, : concision.Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Archer, I want to share a few things... You make up your own mind. I only ask that you try to see my point. And none of what I offer below is preaching. It is simply the defense of the sanity of belief in Christ as per the Biblical cannon.Archer writes: Are you sure? Or is that a conclusion?
Perhaps you've overlooked something... keep looking. What about God? He can see the whole picture. What if He came and told us these things? Is it then possible? Who is in a position to say? Jesus had the audacity to claim He was that which none of us can be. So we should be seeking with all of our heart, all our mind, and all our strength the omniscient reality expressed Biblically as God?Under what conditions would He give us these answers?On our knees in humility and realizing the utter failure of ourselves to handle what little power we have?I think that would be a reasonable offer so as to begin learning from Him, how to use our power morrally.Here below lies a sewer of madness if what you say is true Archer (that we cannot know). But what you say cannot be true because it is illogical (contradictory). Luke 9:27 below, says that you will know. Open eyes can see reality! It's just that we cannot open our own eyes. So if our eyes are open, it is not because we are special. We must ask for help. So the seeing got there by admiting their blindness. You've already admited that in a sense, but claim to see still. That's the contradiction. Contradictions are motivated by subjectivity.consider:John 9:39-41
39 Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind." 40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?" 41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.Luke 9:18-27
18 Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him, he asked them, "Who do the crowds say I am?" 19 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, that one of the prophets of long ago has come back to life." 20 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Peter answered, "The Christ of God." 21 Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone. 22 And he said, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life." 23 Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. 25 What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self? 26 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God." Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

If I were not afraid of posting too long, I would have gone here next. How does a person measure morality? I mean, if crime over the entire world had come to a record low, would we prove that men were more moral, or maybe only that our ability to bring people to justice had vastly improved? Or if we put into effect worldwide laws granting equal rights, would it wipe out bigotry? This is part of it too. Each of us in our lifetime will hear so many horror stories that eventually we get the impression that morality must be really low. We dwell more on the bad, in general, than on the good. How many times does someone call you and ask if you saw the news report on the food drive? Yes, this is true, although I am not sure if we have these type of people here or no. I think your average Christian may feel the world is getting worse, without proclaiming the end of the world. It is perhaps more proper to say that in some ways it is becoming more uncomfortable to be christian. Fundementalist views on abortion for example are not in the majority any longer, and in relation to that it could be said that morality is declining, with no prophesy of 'end times' being implicit. Of course, our human right to choice is being upheld, which is considered moral. I guess it is still a question of free will, and whether having the right to do something = it is moral to do something. That is still up to the individual, as an 'inalienable right' to make our own moral choices.

I'm sorry but you continue to misrepresent others positions. Really, if you are going to posit someones position you should at the very least try to get it right.Neither I or anglagard have the ability to either allow or deny you anything. Now logic, honesty, board rules and reason might deny you some of the mental gymnastics you continually attempt, but the most that anyone such as myself or anglagard can do is point them out.As to the items you mentioned, no one has denied that absolutes exist. However I do think calling those two TRUTHs when speaking of Absolute Truth and Absolute Morals trivializes your point. I was also surprised that as an American you did not point to the Preamble to our Declaration of Independence. Well let me try to address the title as opposed to the content of your Opening Post since the two are unrelated.The title is "Is belief in God madness in a modern world?"Since I am a Christian there is a high probability that I do not think believing in God is madness.If we stop at that point, then we seem to be in agreement.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

My post was really more intended as humour I can only give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and hope for a reciprocation. I can not be any bolder than to speak what I feel is true. Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

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Absolute:
-noun
14. something that is not dependent upon external conditions for existence or for its specific nature, size, etc. (opposed to relative).

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Subjective
-noun
1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective).

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It seems that in order to be subjective, it must depend upon the external condition of existing in the mind. So then an absolute exists objectively, but being subjective does not make something relative if it doesn't depend on the subject for existence.So when your opponent is:

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in defense of the position that reality is not absolute, but subjective.

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It does not hurt his position

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that he is invoking 'reality' (which is absolute by definition) to give solid ground to the accusation that some of us are 'mad' in relation to that ground.

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I think you made a mistake (and failed).But don’t worry about it.

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We all make unthoughtful comments from time to time. It's more than forgivable .

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Yes, I have edited the original from: To: A slip there on my part, but one that made for an interesting exchange.I think everyone got the point in spite of my carelessness, but maybe not. I confess it is difficult, and at this moment in time, my brain cannot go there. A break is mandatory from such thoughts. It requires the right frame of mind. At least for me.So if anyone is not following today, come back when you're sharp. I think few of us are 'that' sharp all the time.I bend my knee to the Catholic Scientist!Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quote

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If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

No jar, they should try to get it right. And if it's not then they need to concede the point. That's how dialog works in the framework of objectivity.If someone is wrong in their assertion, it is not my job to promote what it is they said. It is my job to point out what it is they are actually saying.Correction is not misrepresentation.For example, if I ask a person what the solution to the equation 1+1 is, and they say 4, then I must correct them. Obviously, they did not mean to be incorrect, but that does not mean that they meant to say 1.I simply must, in the interest of truth, point out to others that 1+1 does not equal 4 but 1. Well think whatever you want. You said that no-one can or has ever given an example of absolute truth. And I gave you two. I don't think that moves the momentum in your favor. You're the stubborn one who has forced this to be done the hard way. We'll start very simple where you cannot escape, and then we will move forward into more astonishing ground. Do you get suprised often? I do, and it's ok... Oh no.... no no no no no.... There's no stopping!Reality is eternal and will keep calling our bluff until we fall upon it in brokeness, or it falls upon us and crushes us!But I'm glad we agree on something.

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If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

Will you please......keep doing what you're doing. I'll shut up and let you work. Go get'em! I don't mean to be an ass, it is just what I am.

Are you saying that all goodness must originate from God and that no one has the inner ability to choose to do good apart from God?