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Author | Topic: Why Are Christians Afraid To Doubt? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: I guess I am still afraid to venture out on the ice that much. I used to work at a hockey arena. When a group of school kids came in to skate, you could tell right away which of the boys played hockey - they were by far the best skaters. You could also tell that some of the girls had done figure skating. But most of the girls and some of the boys were fairly clumsy skaters. There was one big kid, probably about twelve years old, who would never venture away from the edge. He skated all the way around the rink with at least one hand holding on to the boards, taking very short steps. The littler, clumsier kids fell down a lot more - but they had a lot more fun too. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: Why should I reserve the right to be the final arbitrator? How do you choose a "final arbiter"? Aren't you the final arbiter of who the final arbiter is? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Rob writes: We should not be afraid to be skeptical of our own worldview. I don't think being skeptical of our own worldview is really the issue. Our own worldview is really all there is. We need to be skeptical/cautious about what we incorporate into our own worldview. Our first worldview is usually Mommy. When something else comes into view we wonder, "What the @#$% is that?" We don't like it. We want Mommy back. As more and more things encroach on our worldview, some of them are accepted and some of them are rejected. Eventually, initial rejection often turns to initial curiosity and the selection process becomes more complex. That selection process should never stop. We should be as curious as a little child about new things, but we should be more intelligent and more critical about accepting them. We should also be willing to throw out the junk that got in there somehow and is no longer useful. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
CTD writes: For myself, I'm very reluctant to doubt anything regarding the Bible; but should a full-blown doubt arise, I'm confident it will be part of a learning experience and I will benefit in the end. From your description, it seems like your "learning experience" was learning how to rationalize away the doubts. I'm not sure that addresses the topic of why you might be afraid to doubt. Is it that you're afraid the rationalizations might become as unsatisfying to you as they are to me? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Rob writes: What objective standard of reality do you use to measure such things? Suppose you find a box of old calendars in the basement. Is it "true" that Christmas fell on a Friday in 1998? Or is it true that that calendar has little usefulness in 2007? "Reality" is what is useful and "irrelevance" is what is not. So why be afraid to throw out that old box of calendars? And instead of using that C. S. Lewis quote-a-day calendar as a crutch, why not think for yourself? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
I'm going to risk the Purple Wrath and answer this question:
Rob writes: Any suggestions on what I should think about all these facts you call reality? I'm not suggesting "what" you should think. That's my whole point: I'm suggesting that you should think. Why are Christians afraid to doubt? Maybe because doubting The Truth™ would make them responsible for their own thoughts? Trust is a wonderful thing. But how can you trust somebody else's thoughts if you can't trust your own? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Rob writes: The question really is, 'why not take the chance'? The question really really is, "Why not take a lot of chances?" Why cling to that one life-preserver? Why not swim for that lush green island? Keep the life preserver with you by all means, as a backup - but don't be afraid to move forward.
We wouldn't expect Christianity (if it were true) to make sense to a mere mortal. Of course we would. Ask yourself why. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
I don't care what answers you have arrived at or how you got there. This thread isn't about the answers - it's about the questions. It isn't about the destination - it's about the journey.
Why do you think you have "arrived"? Why are you afraid to walk out the door again? It doesn't matter how nice the destination is that you've arrived at. How do you know there isn't a better one down the road?
Rob writes: Do you put your own worldview through such an objective, systamatized, and thorough criticism? Maybe "objective, systematized and thorough" criticism is the problem rather than the solution. Why not think outside the system, outside the box? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
CTD writes: But irrational doubts can certainly arise. I'm not talking about "irrational doubts". I'm talking about doubting the rationality of your pet beliefs. Doubt used properly removes irrational beliefs.
Now for why one would be actually afraid to doubt. For a Christian in this environment, there are hazards. As I have suggested, the major hazard seems to be the loss of irrationality.
Many here would suggest reasons to doubt that are far from valid. So what is a "vaild reason" to doubt? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Rob writes: I am afraid of nothing... And that is why I know I have arrived. Knowing you have arrived and fear of going out again are completely different things. Columbus, Magellan, Hudson, Cook all died while exploring. They arrived and arrived and arrived but they kept on going out again. They understood that there is no final destination, only the journey.
Why are you afraid to try giving up total control of your life to the living God? Who says I haven't tried it?
Do you prefer a subjective, unsystamatized, and incomplete analysis of the evidence? Objective means that others will get the same results I do. That ain't gonna happen. As long as the subject is me, subjective is all there is. Systematic means inside the box. You can't test anything effectively without pushing the envelope. And no analysis is ever complete.
So as for your other question... 'why I cannot go back out of the door?'... I can! But where would I go? You won't know until you get there. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Rob writes: 1. There is no evidence for it anywhere. 2. There is no philosopher or scientist who has established otherwise. 3. To suggest so in the affirmative is logically contradictory. 3. There is zero reason to believe we ever will... other thanwe want it to be true so bad, that we will deny logic itself and leave reason in ashes.... You lost me. Are you talking about your religion?
... you don't believe me when I say I am there. Of course not. I've been where you are and it ain't "there". There's plenty more road. Edited by Ringo, : Capitalism. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
CTD writes: So what is this game? How many different questions can we make using the same words? I'm not sure what you mean. I think I've been pretty consistent. (By the way, by "rationalize" I mean "make up plausible answers that appear to be rational". Is that the sticking point?)
If the wisdom of Lewis is to be tossed aside merely on the basis of "Lewis is other than oneself".... I never said anything of the sort. I said don't use Lewis as a crutch. By all means, read Lewis, undestand Lewis, incorporate Lewis' thoughts into your own and express your thoughts in your own words.
Methinks the "irrational beliefs" of Ringo's post have little to do with typical Christian doubts. This thread isn't about "typical Christian doubts". It's about the atypical doubts that Christians are afraid of.
The Christian has once answered these questions, and there is no need to doubt the answers. There is every reason. How can you know you have the "right" answer? Don't you doubt your own infallibility? Once more, the topic isn't about why you "shouldn't" doubt - it's why you're afraid to doubt. All you're doing is demonstrating that you are. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Rob writes: Let's recap... we're talking about whether one can have their sin and still keep peace and harmony in the land. No. We're not. We're talking about why (some) Christians would rather huddle in the dark with their Right Answers™ instead of having the courage to explore the questions.
Where are you going Ringo? Forward.
What are you looking for? Why do I have to be looking "for" something? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
anastasia writes: For the sake of clarity, is this thread about questioning the existance of God per se? I don't know exactly what Phat had in mind. Maybe I've been using that general idea as a catch-all for generic doubt. But I can think of lots of things to doubt: Jesus' existence, Jesus' divinity, Paul's veracity, the Trinity, the Fall, the Flood, Satan, God's motives.... These are a few of my favouite doubts. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Rob writes: Because... there... is... no... way... to... tell... if... you... are... moving... forward... if... you... don't... know... what... you... are... looking... for... Silly, silly, silly. The toes are in the front. Just keep following the toes.
Simple pleasure is so hard to find after riding the waves of bliss as you have huh? I thought you were the one who claimed to have found the Perfect Wave™. I doubt that you have. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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