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Author
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Topic: Why Are Christians Afraid To Doubt?
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Larni
Member (Idle past 182 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: 09-16-2005
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Message 4 of 300 (391745)
03-27-2007 5:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
03-27-2007 4:32 AM
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Re: Look Befor You Leap
Taking a leap of faith is jumping to a conclusion. Doing this in any other situation can lead us to make unforced errors. In fact, I can only think of one instance where this is a good thing: an emergency situation. That is to say, if you jump to the conclusion that the squealing screach is the brakes of a car hurtling towards you and then you jump out of the way it's a good thing. You survive. If it is not a car heading towards you, you may look foolish but ultimately, no harm done. Making a leap of faith or jumping to conclusions is pointless unless you want to exist in a state where the ultimate outcome is believed to be true. But in this instance you are engaging in wishful thinking only. Thats what I contend faith in gods is: wishful thinking. As it's a pretty fagile stance, any doubt is a dangerous thing. Like a house of cards held up by wishful thinking it is very vulnerable to being demolished.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 3 by Phat, posted 03-27-2007 4:32 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Larni
Member (Idle past 182 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: 09-16-2005
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Message 6 of 300 (391761)
03-27-2007 10:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 5 by purpledawn
03-27-2007 8:59 AM
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Re: Doubt What?
purpledawn writes: If that is one's foundation, then it may get shaken if examined too closely. Many fear losing that foundation. Yup. House of Cards.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by purpledawn, posted 03-27-2007 8:59 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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Larni
Member (Idle past 182 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: 09-16-2005
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Message 13 of 300 (391930)
03-28-2007 3:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
03-27-2007 12:32 PM
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Re: Human constructs
Phat writes: Many people have faith only in what they have been taught. That's the only thing we can have faith in, what we have been taught; whether it is from being taught something by others, the environment or our internal environment. So we all only have faith in what we are taught: we put our spin on it through interpretation, but even that is learnt. We have having what we kmow challenged. That's why in science doubt )(error) is such a fundemental factor.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by Phat, posted 03-27-2007 12:32 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 14 by Phat, posted 03-28-2007 10:16 AM | | Larni has not replied |
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Larni
Member (Idle past 182 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: 09-16-2005
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Re: Look Befor You Leap
While I have to agree, I would assert that to believe in a god you have to (at some point) refrain from doubting. To continue doubting will eventually demolish ones' faith.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 30 by jar, posted 03-29-2007 11:55 AM | | Larni has replied |
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Larni
Member (Idle past 182 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: 09-16-2005
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Message 34 of 300 (392143)
03-29-2007 1:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 30 by jar
03-29-2007 11:55 AM
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Re: Look Befor You Leap
jar writes: Is there any reason someone could not say "This is what I believe to be true but I realize that I might be wrong and understand that no one living is likely to ever know for sure."? To be sure, it can be correct to say this. But, when we know that no one living (including ourselves) can ever know for sure, can we in all intellectual integrity plump for a conclusion that we know we cannot be sure is correct? Here, I differentiate the certainty of faith with the acceptable uncertainty of scientific inquery. Of course I could be completely miss-representing many religious people with this assertation, but being not religious I can only go on what I have observed. I hope that makes sense; I'm a wee bit tipsy and every one else is out is out side having a smoke so I though t I would be constructive and reply to you.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by jar, posted 03-29-2007 11:55 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 57 by jar, posted 03-29-2007 6:49 PM | | Larni has not replied |
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Larni
Member (Idle past 182 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: 09-16-2005
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Message 35 of 300 (392144)
03-29-2007 2:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 31 by Rob
03-29-2007 12:26 PM
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Rob writes: We should not be afraid to be skeptical of our own worldview. What is completely taken for granted, is that that is only because we are admitting that it is fundamentally neccessary to put truth above our own desires which are biased and subjective. So this whole notion of questioning ourselves, is really an acknowledgement of truth's exalted status over all of heaven and earth. Implications such as this are completely missed if we do not use our whole mind (intuitive and deductive) to examine ourselves... Totally agree. But then you go a blow it by writing the rest of the post! More irrelevent preaching.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 31 by Rob, posted 03-29-2007 12:26 PM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 37 by Rob, posted 03-29-2007 2:13 PM | | Larni has replied |
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Larni
Member (Idle past 182 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: 09-16-2005
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Message 36 of 300 (392147)
03-29-2007 2:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
03-29-2007 12:52 PM
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Trash the trash.
Ringo writes: We should also be willing to throw out the junk that got in there somehow and is no longer useful. Yup. It's doubt that tells us "Hang on a minute: lets make sure this (artical of faith- mum/dad's infallability etc), is actually true before we rely on it any more." Then we trash the junk in our head (that we need mum/dad/invisible friends/gods etc) and become able to be purely ourselves. Sorry, waxed hippy towards the end, there.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 32 by ringo, posted 03-29-2007 12:52 PM | | ringo has not replied |
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Larni
Member (Idle past 182 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: 09-16-2005
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Message 38 of 300 (392150)
03-29-2007 2:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 33 by CTD
03-29-2007 1:52 PM
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CTD writes: doubts about His love or His ability to keep His Word are usually overcome as soon as the thought occurs, before it can even grow into actual doubt. Here lies the death of thought.
CTD writes: Doubts about specific issues are different. But not gods? I call special pleading.
CTD writes: The Holy Spirit has no problem suggesting thoughts; and as I understand the situation, Satan & co. can also put thoughts into our minds. I would love to call you out on this. Fancy starting an OP with this as an initial assertaion in the science forum?
CTD writes: For myself, I'm very reluctant to doubt anything regarding the Bible; but should a full-blown doubt arise, I'm confident it will be part of a learning experience and I will benefit in the end. Should a doubt arise concerning God's desire or capacity to help us, I think it's prudent to make it a high priority, and patiently, prayerfully seek to resolve it. Or you put your faith in your (maybe god given?) ability to find solutions? Do it yourself! ABE: Bwt: Welcome to the fray! Sorry if I sound like a git. Edited by Larni, : Directors commentary, Crew notes, blooper real, does any one read this?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 33 by CTD, posted 03-29-2007 1:52 PM | | CTD has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 58 by CTD, posted 03-29-2007 7:12 PM | | Larni has not replied |
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Larni
Member (Idle past 182 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: 09-16-2005
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Message 41 of 300 (392155)
03-29-2007 2:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 37 by Rob
03-29-2007 2:13 PM
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Rob writes: First of all, what gives you the right to judge my words as irrelevant? I defiy you to tie in your words to the OP.
Rob writes: What objective standard of reality do you use to measure such things? Never claimed there was. In actual fact, doubting implies there is not an objective percieved reality.
Rob writes: Secondly, my post was for Phat. I don't expect that you would agree, and I have no interest in convincing you otherwise. Public forum: tough.
Rob writes: But once again, thanks for the prescriptivism and your personal opinion leveled out as authoritative. Show me that it is with your own words and I will retract it.
Rob writes: It was uplifting and courageous... Show how I am wrong and I wil retract it; I have nothing invested in my stance so you can be sure I will be able to do so.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 37 by Rob, posted 03-29-2007 2:13 PM | | Rob has not replied |
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Larni
Member (Idle past 182 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: 09-16-2005
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Message 46 of 300 (392167)
03-29-2007 3:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 31 by Rob
03-29-2007 12:26 PM
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Reply to my points (and Ringo's come to think of it) or get out of dodge. This is not even a science topic! You are held to a low level of validity here, step up daminit.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 31 by Rob, posted 03-29-2007 12:26 PM | | Rob has not replied |
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Larni
Member (Idle past 182 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: 09-16-2005
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Message 53 of 300 (392184)
03-29-2007 5:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 47 by Rob
03-29-2007 3:47 PM
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Re: unbelieveable!
Larni writes: Reply to my points (and Ringo's come to think of it) or get out of dodge. This is not even a science topic! You are held to a low level of validity here, step up daminit. Come on Rob, step up.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by Rob, posted 03-29-2007 3:47 PM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 60 by Rob, posted 03-29-2007 7:29 PM | | Larni has not replied |
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Larni
Member (Idle past 182 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: 09-16-2005
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Message 55 of 300 (392186)
03-29-2007 5:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 52 by CTD
03-29-2007 5:52 PM
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Larni and CTD writes: CTD writes: doubts about His love or His ability to keep His Word are usually overcome as soon as the thought occurs, before it can even grow into actual doubt. Here lies the death of thought. CTD writes: Doubts about specific issues are different. But not gods? I call special pleading. CTD writes: The Holy Spirit has no problem suggesting thoughts; and as I understand the situation, Satan & co. can also put thoughts into our minds. I would love to call you out on this. Fancy starting an OP with this as an initial assertaion in the science forum? CTD writes: For myself, I'm very reluctant to doubt anything regarding the Bible; but should a full-blown doubt arise, I'm confident it will be part of a learning experience and I will benefit in the end. Should a doubt arise concerning God's desire or capacity to help us, I think it's prudent to make it a high priority, and patiently, prayerfully seek to resolve it. Or you put your faith in your (maybe god given?) ability to find solutions? Do it yourself! ABE: Bwt: Welcome to the fray! Sorry if I sound like a git. Feel like replying?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 52 by CTD, posted 03-29-2007 5:52 PM | | CTD has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 62 by CTD, posted 03-29-2007 8:16 PM | | Larni has replied |
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Larni
Member (Idle past 182 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: 09-16-2005
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Message 97 of 300 (392275)
03-30-2007 7:25 AM
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Reply to: Message 62 by CTD
03-29-2007 8:16 PM
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Sorry
I did not mean to come across the way I did. I appologise.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 62 by CTD, posted 03-29-2007 8:16 PM | | CTD has not replied |
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Larni
Member (Idle past 182 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: 09-16-2005
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Message 98 of 300 (392278)
03-30-2007 7:35 AM
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Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
03-30-2007 2:04 AM
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Re: Trivialize?
Ringo writes: Why do you pair up doubt and worry? Good point: worry has a negative cognitive predictive manifestation, doubt is a state of neutral affect.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by ringo, posted 03-30-2007 2:04 AM | | ringo has not replied |
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Larni
Member (Idle past 182 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: 09-16-2005
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Message 108 of 300 (392303)
03-30-2007 9:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
03-30-2007 8:39 AM
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Why and What if?
Phat writes: I suppose that a fair assessment of this step would be to ask ourselves some questions: Why is it necessary to turn our wills and our lives over to anything? Putting my CBT hat on for a minute. Turning our wills over to (insert name here) can lower anxiety levels to a point where we can engage in constructive apraisal of what is going on in our heads when we decide to (gamble, drink, worry, ruminate etc). This is no different to accepting that (say) a therapist has the tools to teach you to improve your quality of life. In practice I sometimes have to 'sell' CBT to a patient. Essentially this is the placebo effect as the patient starts to 'believe' in the theraputic approach. The fact that (person you put trust in) is interested in you will tap into the Hawthorn Effect (my very favourite effect).
Phat writes: What if we choose not to believe in a Higher Power? Would the logical step then become to share our thoughts and our wills with a group of people in the hopes that we could gain insight into our addiction or our thought process? I think it does not need a higher power/group effect/theraputic intervention/advise from a friend etc to do the above. It needs something to give you the confidence that you can do it. This can come in many guises, but I guess I prefer mine because of the wealth of research to indicate it works. And the fact that I can teach it to people in a few hours. Gawd bless the NHS.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 103 by Phat, posted 03-30-2007 8:39 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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