Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9163 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,419 Year: 3,676/9,624 Month: 547/974 Week: 160/276 Day: 34/23 Hour: 1/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why Are Christians Afraid To Doubt?
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 31 of 300 (392125)
03-29-2007 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
03-26-2007 5:03 PM


Great topic Phat!
We should not be afraid to be skeptical of our own worldview. What is completely taken for granted, is that that is only because we are admitting that it is fundamentally neccessary to put truth above our own desires which are biased and subjective.
So this whole notion of questioning ourselves, is really an acknowledgement of truth's exalted status over all of heaven and earth.
Implications such as this are completely missed if we do not use our whole mind (intuitive and deductive) to examine ourselves...
Ringo asked a very important question... 'Are you not the final arbitor of who the final arbitor is on your own life'?
I would like to copy and paste a question and reply I gave to a private party on this issue. I'll call him Bruce:
Bruce:
"Rob wrote, "The price of knowing Christ involves willingly selling one's natural life out to God. The only way to give up control, is to be posessed by another," i.e., "... by God Himself by way of the Holy Spirit."
Your statement quoted above is so alien to my way of thinking that I have to struggle even to understand what it means. I understand the concept of spiritual possession, and I do not discount the idea of the holy spirit. It seems to me that each of us naturally resonates with something, though that varies from one person to another - that by our very way of being we are naturally in resonance with some principle or spiritual vibration. I would propose that what one resonates with today can evolve into a higher resonance tomorrow, perhaps eventually reaching the highest resonance or attunement with the holy spirit. But selling one's soul? Being possessed by another? I cannot conceive of a God who would want us to give our souls in total surrender to Him or anyone else. God may not be my equal, but I cannot imagine a supreme being wanting to be my personal slavemaster either. I think he would want me to enjoy the freedom just to be myself, that is, to be most fully who I am, though I may need to overcome a few tendencies that might be less than helpful (or what you might call "sinful," though I dislike that word). Freedom may be overrated at times, but I do not think it is a total illusion. Didn't God make each of us in his image?"
Now this is the most pivotal issue of all... I ask that you give me a excruciatingly fair hearing here. Because if this is actually true, it is the most monumental discovery in our journey home. So bear that in mind...
God did create us in His own image. And that means many things Bruce. It means that He is Father Son and Spirit, and we are body, soul, and spirit. It means more importantly, that we are meant to be Godly in the moral sense. And this is where I would invite you to read C.S. Lewis' book 'Mere Christianity'. I won't get into it here, but it is pivotal in the discussion of the subject.
It also means that you are absolutely essential. You are irreplaceable. Your uniqueness is unmatched and unequalled.
You mentioned the freedom to be you. But I ask you, how do you even know who you are, without knowing what reality is?
Without the purpose you were made for, you cannot be you! Without the origin, meaning, morality, and the destiny that defines you, how can you be free to be you?
I ask you consider this... you are already a slave! You are posessed by yourself. And as a finite being with a finite capacity to understand, we are posessed and restrained by incomplete knowledge.
Richard Dawkins, the vocal Naturalist at Oxford, wrote a book (which I have not read). And in defending against certain moral systems he said, "We are all just dancing to our DNA. There is no such thing as right and wrong, we're all just dancing to our DNA."
I became aware of this quote in another message of Rabi's called 'The Loss of Truth and a Proposal for it's Recovery'. As a truck driver, I have a lot of time to listen to these lectures and think without distraction. (remember that the next time you see a dirty and unshaven truck driver )
Ravi is not one to be reactionary, and his response to Dawkins struck me. He said, "Ok, I'll accept that! We're all just dancing to our DNA... How much more profound then, are the words of our Lord that 'you must be born again'?"
You see Bruce, that is the central theme of Christianity. And that is why I came to that place where I could ask Him to come into my life. Because I was a slave to the system. A slave to my own passions, and a slave to my own sin. I wanted freedom. And I could not know the way myself. I could not figure out infinite truth with my finite mind. And because of that, i did not know what life was...
And here comes this Christ, who claims to be all of that. What did I have to lose? If nothing happened, then I was no worse off.
But If it was true, the only thing stopping me was my own desire for power and control of my life... which I realized was the entire problem with my life. I was posessed by myself. A selfish wretched little hitler (lower case 'h') just like the rest of us...
And rather than condemn me for it, this Christ paid for my sins, and offered the way out.
Believe me when I tell you that I was astonished when He made Himself manifest to me... I cannot describe it. But like John Newton (the former slave owner), who wrote 'Amazing Grace'... I was blind but now I see. that song meant nothing to me before as it likely does you at this time. Such lyrics are not composed out of wishful thinking... They are a result of being liberated from prison.
When you make that transaction with Christ, you are gaining everything in Him, and still aquiring your self. Do read C.S. Lewis 'Mere Christianity' for more on why... it is real intellectual meat on the matter.
I do hope I am not overdoing it Bruce. But as a kid who grew up Catholic... never once hearing the words of Jesus about the new birth (or much else from the Bible for that matter), and as one who had abandoned the faith for lack a use for religion.... at 33 years old, I began to listen again for myself, and I am still perplexed that it is not more obvious to everyone what is really going on...
The Bible makes it so clear... John's Gospel says it as plainly and as deeply in condensed fashion.
A man in Southern Humboldt County Ca told me recently that he was waiting for the aliens to come and save us from ourselves. Some real and manifest life greater than ourselves to learn truth from.
I told him that it happened two thousand years ago, but that we didn't want Him. We were so offended that he claimed to be God that we crucified Him. And those who preach His reality are ridiculed to this day. We're not all charlatans...
We want our own way, truth and life... And that is more informative of our intrinsic evil than the deeds that manifest from the ideational into the physical as a result.
It all goes back to interpretation of the facts because of motive, ends and means...
"I had motives for not wanting the world to have a meaning; and consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics. He is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do.
For myself, as no doubt for most of my friends, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation from a certain system of morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom. The supporters of this system claimed that it embodied the meaning--the Christian meaning, they insisted--of the world. There was one admirably simple method of confuting these people and justifying ourselves in our erotic revolt: we would deny that the world had any meaning whatever."
(Aldous Huxley, Ends and Means, 1937)
Please do think about it seriously for yourself Bruce. God will give you what you wish for either way. The question is, if we ask to have it our way, do we know what we're asking for?

Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 03-26-2007 5:03 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 03-29-2007 12:52 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 35 by Larni, posted 03-29-2007 2:05 PM Rob has replied
 Message 46 by Larni, posted 03-29-2007 3:30 PM Rob has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 32 of 300 (392128)
03-29-2007 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Rob
03-29-2007 12:26 PM


Rob writes:
We should not be afraid to be skeptical of our own worldview.
I don't think being skeptical of our own worldview is really the issue. Our own worldview is really all there is.
We need to be skeptical/cautious about what we incorporate into our own worldview.
Our first worldview is usually Mommy. When something else comes into view we wonder, "What the @#$% is that?" We don't like it. We want Mommy back.
As more and more things encroach on our worldview, some of them are accepted and some of them are rejected. Eventually, initial rejection often turns to initial curiosity and the selection process becomes more complex.
That selection process should never stop. We should be as curious as a little child about new things, but we should be more intelligent and more critical about accepting them.
We should also be willing to throw out the junk that got in there somehow and is no longer useful.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Rob, posted 03-29-2007 12:26 PM Rob has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Larni, posted 03-29-2007 2:12 PM ringo has not replied

CTD
Member (Idle past 5890 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 33 of 300 (392140)
03-29-2007 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Nighttrain
03-29-2007 3:02 AM


Isn`t it a tad sad that Christians hesitate to take the plunge, yet castigate those who have. I won`t trade my present serenity for the constant fear that I may not have done sufficient to please a non-existent god.
Isn't it remarkable that most Christians I've known would agree that the god who requires salvation by works is non-existent. This thread isn't about faith vs. works doctrines, but for the record not all "Christians" claim salvation is obtained by good works.
Now back to the issue of doubt. Doubts can lead to learning, so doubt isn't an inherently bad thing. But not all doubt is good.
Trusting God is more important than I can say, and doubts about His love or His ability to keep His Word are usually overcome as soon as the thought occurs, before it can even grow into actual doubt.
Doubts about specific issues are different. Our understanding is imperfect, and the opinions of others aren't always helpful. Perhaps a true story will be helpful.
My first serious challenge to the perfection of scripture was an apparent change in the numbers involved in the miracle of the loaves and the fishes between two of the gospels. The issue was very important to me, and it took weeks for me to resolve it. Of course it turned out that there was more than one such miracle, and the numbers actually do match.
I learned my lesson. Since then I've seen many more alleged "contradictions" in scripture (antichrists have compiled dozens), but experience teaches that they're illusory. So my faith is less weak than it was prior to my initial doubt.
There are many sources for thoughts in life. Some appear to be spontaneously generated, some come from the environment. The Holy Spirit has no problem suggesting thoughts; and as I understand the situation, Satan & co. can also put thoughts into our minds. We cannot always identify the source of a given thought, but we can assess its validity before pursuing it. This is true of both temptation and doubt.
It can also be a mistake to assume doubts are to be immediately resolved. Sometimes doubt can form the basis of important lessons which it may take months (or longer) for us to learn.
For myself, I'm very reluctant to doubt anything regarding the Bible; but should a full-blown doubt arise, I'm confident it will be part of a learning experience and I will benefit in the end. Should a doubt arise concerning God's desire or capacity to help us, I think it's prudent to make it a high priority, and patiently, prayerfully seek to resolve it.
Even before I was saved, I could look at what Jesus went through and know that God has always been serious about His love for us, no matter what problems we may have understanding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Nighttrain, posted 03-29-2007 3:02 AM Nighttrain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Larni, posted 03-29-2007 2:21 PM CTD has replied
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 03-29-2007 2:23 PM CTD has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 185 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 34 of 300 (392143)
03-29-2007 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
03-29-2007 11:55 AM


Re: Look Befor You Leap
jar writes:
Is there any reason someone could not say "This is what I believe to be true but I realize that I might be wrong and understand that no one living is likely to ever know for sure."?
To be sure, it can be correct to say this.
But, when we know that no one living (including ourselves) can ever know for sure, can we in all intellectual integrity plump for a conclusion that we know we cannot be sure is correct?
Here, I differentiate the certainty of faith with the acceptable uncertainty of scientific inquery.
Of course I could be completely miss-representing many religious people with this assertation, but being not religious I can only go on what I have observed.
I hope that makes sense; I'm a wee bit tipsy and every one else is out is out side having a smoke so I though t I would be constructive and reply to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 03-29-2007 11:55 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 03-29-2007 6:49 PM Larni has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 185 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 35 of 300 (392144)
03-29-2007 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Rob
03-29-2007 12:26 PM


Rob writes:
We should not be afraid to be skeptical of our own worldview. What is completely taken for granted, is that that is only because we are admitting that it is fundamentally neccessary to put truth above our own desires which are biased and subjective.
So this whole notion of questioning ourselves, is really an acknowledgement of truth's exalted status over all of heaven and earth.
Implications such as this are completely missed if we do not use our whole mind (intuitive and deductive) to examine ourselves...
Totally agree.
But then you go a blow it by writing the rest of the post!
More irrelevent preaching.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Rob, posted 03-29-2007 12:26 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Rob, posted 03-29-2007 2:13 PM Larni has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 185 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 36 of 300 (392147)
03-29-2007 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
03-29-2007 12:52 PM


Trash the trash.
Ringo writes:
We should also be willing to throw out the junk that got in there somehow and is no longer useful.
Yup.
It's doubt that tells us "Hang on a minute: lets make sure this (artical of faith- mum/dad's infallability etc), is actually true before we rely on it any more."
Then we trash the junk in our head (that we need mum/dad/invisible friends/gods etc) and become able to be purely ourselves.
Sorry, waxed hippy towards the end, there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 03-29-2007 12:52 PM ringo has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 37 of 300 (392149)
03-29-2007 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Larni
03-29-2007 2:05 PM


Larni:
Totally agree.
But then you go a blow it by writing the rest of the post!
More irrelevent preaching.
First of all, what gives you the right to judge my words as irrelevant?
What objective standard of reality do you use to measure such things?
If you wish to do so, please explain. It is impolite to throw accusations without providing evidence. It is actually a violation of EVC forum guidelines.
Secondly, my post was for Phat. I don't expect that you would agree, and I have no interest in convincing you otherwise.
But once again, thanks for the prescriptivism and your personal opinion leveled out as authoritative. Thanks for providing level 3 philosophy in level 1 terms.
It was uplifting and courageous...
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
Take comments to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Larni, posted 03-29-2007 2:05 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 03-29-2007 2:34 PM Rob has replied
 Message 41 by Larni, posted 03-29-2007 2:37 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 42 by AdminPD, posted 03-29-2007 2:43 PM Rob has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 185 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 38 of 300 (392150)
03-29-2007 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by CTD
03-29-2007 1:52 PM


CTD writes:
doubts about His love or His ability to keep His Word are usually overcome as soon as the thought occurs, before it can even grow into actual doubt.
Here lies the death of thought.
CTD writes:
Doubts about specific issues are different.
But not gods? I call special pleading.
CTD writes:
The Holy Spirit has no problem suggesting thoughts; and as I understand the situation, Satan & co. can also put thoughts into our minds.
I would love to call you out on this. Fancy starting an OP with this as an initial assertaion in the science forum?
CTD writes:
For myself, I'm very reluctant to doubt anything regarding the Bible; but should a full-blown doubt arise, I'm confident it will be part of a learning experience and I will benefit in the end. Should a doubt arise concerning God's desire or capacity to help us, I think it's prudent to make it a high priority, and patiently, prayerfully seek to resolve it.
Or you put your faith in your (maybe god given?) ability to find solutions?
Do it yourself!
ABE:
Bwt: Welcome to the fray!
Sorry if I sound like a git.
Edited by Larni, : Directors commentary, Crew notes, blooper real, does any one read this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by CTD, posted 03-29-2007 1:52 PM CTD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by CTD, posted 03-29-2007 7:12 PM Larni has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 39 of 300 (392151)
03-29-2007 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by CTD
03-29-2007 1:52 PM


CTD writes:
For myself, I'm very reluctant to doubt anything regarding the Bible; but should a full-blown doubt arise, I'm confident it will be part of a learning experience and I will benefit in the end.
From your description, it seems like your "learning experience" was learning how to rationalize away the doubts. I'm not sure that addresses the topic of why you might be afraid to doubt. Is it that you're afraid the rationalizations might become as unsatisfying to you as they are to me?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by CTD, posted 03-29-2007 1:52 PM CTD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by CTD, posted 03-29-2007 5:52 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 40 of 300 (392153)
03-29-2007 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Rob
03-29-2007 2:13 PM


Rob writes:
What objective standard of reality do you use to measure such things?
Suppose you find a box of old calendars in the basement. Is it "true" that Christmas fell on a Friday in 1998? Or is it true that that calendar has little usefulness in 2007?
"Reality" is what is useful and "irrelevance" is what is not.
So why be afraid to throw out that old box of calendars? And instead of using that C. S. Lewis quote-a-day calendar as a crutch, why not think for yourself?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Rob, posted 03-29-2007 2:13 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Rob, posted 03-29-2007 2:55 PM ringo has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 185 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 41 of 300 (392155)
03-29-2007 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Rob
03-29-2007 2:13 PM


Rob writes:
First of all, what gives you the right to judge my words as irrelevant?
I defiy you to tie in your words to the OP.
Rob writes:
What objective standard of reality do you use to measure such things?
Never claimed there was. In actual fact, doubting implies there is not an objective percieved reality.
Rob writes:
Secondly, my post was for Phat. I don't expect that you would agree, and I have no interest in convincing you otherwise.
Public forum: tough.
Rob writes:
But once again, thanks for the prescriptivism and your personal opinion leveled out as authoritative.
Show me that it is with your own words and I will retract it.
Rob writes:
It was uplifting and courageous...
Show how I am wrong and I wil retract it; I have nothing invested in my stance so you can be sure I will be able to do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Rob, posted 03-29-2007 2:13 PM Rob has not replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 42 of 300 (392157)
03-29-2007 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Rob
03-29-2007 2:13 PM


Quote Off Topic
Rob,
Your quote in that post did not address the topic.
Please do not continue the off topic quotes and remarks.
Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.
Thank you Purple

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Rob, posted 03-29-2007 2:13 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5870 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 43 of 300 (392158)
03-29-2007 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
03-29-2007 2:34 PM


unbelieveable!
Ringo:
"Reality" is what is useful and "irrelevance" is what is not.
So why be afraid to throw out that old box of calendars? And instead of using that C. S. Lewis quote-a-day calendar as a crutch, why not think for yourself?
Any suggestions on what I should think about all these facts you call reality?
Are you suggesting I do it 'my way'?
The fact is, some people are heterosexual and some are homosexual.
The fact is, Hitler exterminated approximately six million Jews...
The fact is, some people love thier neighbors and some people eat them.
Do you have a preference on these matters? If so, why? And on what basis?
and are you in such denial that you actually intend to posit that my beliefs have no impact on yours? And vice versa?
Do you ever ask yourself these questions in the process of criticizing your own worldview?
I don't think you do, because you show no signs of thinking for yourself. You cannot explain why you think it, or by what foundation you proceed from.
What you are told by those who seek to justify their own passions makes perfect sense to you. The whole infrastructure today is shifting to free you to forget thinking altogether and simply do as you wish...
You demand freedom and autonomy, but cannot explain why because you have not thought it through, and have no interest in doing so...
Thinking for yourself is what would make you stop and question these insidious allurements. Just wish it away...
Ringo, there is something you don't understand about your own thinking (or lack thereof). If you don't mind me saying, it is incompetant.
You are committed to 'freedom of thought', yet you confine yourself to your current position whatever that may be. You speak as though your mind is made up... There is no persuading you.
You speak of Chrisendom as knowingly false. But in doing so, you imply truth (the very absolute you despise).
That's not freedom Ringo, that is building a defensive position. It is constructing a wall.
No matter the perspective, it is a fence. Only men such as Charles Manson allow themselves to be truely free.
So freedom is not the same thing as autonomy. Do you concur?
Life without a moral compass is simply not life at all, but death and darkness. You see?
You and I both have a moral fabric. I can see that your heart longs for unity and harmony. But the chaos of unrestricted thought is antithetical to reason.
Boundaries are not the prison we have been told they are by muddle-headed philosophers looking to justify their passions.
Boundaries are instead, the parameters which allow being... to be. Without parameters... (without gravity for instance), we would float off into the abyss of physical space and be destroyed by the Cosmos. We need the shelter of our atmosphere and the force of gravity imposed upon us to remain.
Freedom itself becomes our prison, and 'reason' is sacrificed at the alter of fear.
I do what I want Ringo. Isn't that what you are reccomending.
How you can coherently moralize about my utter wrongness is one of the mysteries of Babylon.
By denouncing my choice of lifestyle, you incriminate yourself.
Suicide of thought.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
Take comments to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 03-29-2007 2:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 03-29-2007 3:23 PM Rob has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 44 of 300 (392162)
03-29-2007 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by arachnophilia
03-29-2007 12:44 AM


Re: short and simple
it's really funny that you have found lines you won't cross and i have not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by arachnophilia, posted 03-29-2007 12:44 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by arachnophilia, posted 03-29-2007 5:20 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 45 of 300 (392165)
03-29-2007 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Rob
03-29-2007 2:55 PM


Re: unbelieveable!
I'm going to risk the Purple Wrath and answer this question:
Rob writes:
Any suggestions on what I should think about all these facts you call reality?
I'm not suggesting "what" you should think. That's my whole point: I'm suggesting that you should think.
Why are Christians afraid to doubt? Maybe because doubting The Truth™ would make them responsible for their own thoughts?
Trust is a wonderful thing. But how can you trust somebody else's thoughts if you can't trust your own?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Rob, posted 03-29-2007 2:55 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Rob, posted 03-29-2007 3:47 PM ringo has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024