Why Are Christians Afraid To Doubt?

Reply to my points (and Ringo's come to think of it) or get out of dodge.This is not even a science topic!You are held to a low level of validity here, step up daminit.

Perhaps you can't. But we know that we cannot know for sure. So it is the only possible chance to know.The question really is, 'why not take the chance'?Why not allow God to posess us spiritually, if the benefits turn out to be real?We certainly cannot tell from where we are sitting now. We have no human way to rattle divine wisdom out through a human lens.We wouldn't expect Christianity (if it were true) to make sense to a mere mortal.You ask me to question my worldview. I do...I only ask the for the same curtiousy.

The question really really is, "Why not take a lot of chances?"Why cling to that one life-preserver? Why not swim for that lush green island? Keep the life preserver with you by all means, as a backup - but don't be afraid to move forward. Of course we would. Ask yourself why.

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maybe you simply have not explored far enough to reach your boundaries.

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I did Ringo. And I can only tell you what I thought of it. And the problem with it was the moral demands. The only part that made sense at first was the part about me being a sinner. It asked me to sacrifice a part of myself by finally being honest that I was wrong in my own desires. That I was missing something pivotal and pretending otherwise.But christianity didn't fit what I wanted most of all...In our lowly human wisdom, we seek to have both our physical cake, and spiritual fulfillment too. That's the solution we seek again and again by political and economic means. this unending quest to find unity for these diverse needs.This Christian message was the only one of a myriad of different philosophies that didn't offer that! It called such a search delusional and impure in it's motive. Christ called my bluff! It is utterly unique in that sense. Almost totally alien in the sense we usually think of human in, and therfore comprhendable in some degree by humanity, but transcending biology and in that sense inhuman.Not unatural or irrational, but super-natural and super-rational. That is what transcendant means. Not totally outside, but the overlapping of one reality with another. the point of overlap is where the light shines. Just follow the light! Who would even wish for such a thing? As Lewis said, 'it is not something we would have guessed.'The question is not whether we can have both our natural desires fulfilled and the spiritual and existential desires for peace on earth (that are not compatable with the former). We can't! We have the one at the expense of the other.One group of these desires must be killed (blasphemed entirely) or this internal conflict will continue to rage.We can either have self denial, or deny oursleves nothing. They are the only two options for peace.We have not found a unifiying theory philosophically that will make good and evil cohere?So what to give up, depends upon whether or not peace is an intrinsically real purpose and reason for existence.If all of my desires and reactions to my environment are just facts, then how can we condemn a Hitler for being caught up in his inevitable environment and destiny?He not only did what is right; he did the only thing he could do...If chaos, death and bloodshed are the actual reality of life, then hope of peace is pissing into the wind.Christianity first posits that my longing for peace and harmony is sound. That my intuitve side is getting hold of at least part of a real picture of reality; that Justice and Mercy are actual realitites in the big picture. It posit's that they are absolute realities and that reality (God) itself/himself cares.It posits that we are held responsible for our choices and demands that we give up being mere men (and the animal desires that flesh brings to a life of it's own) and be taken up into the higher life that transcends it both before and after biological life and death.I believe that! I believe Hitler should have known better. I believe he utterly descimated and blasphemed the spirit of God within himself. And I believe he did so consiously.We can hold on to what we have in the biological side of the equation, but that is only a relative existence. It once was not, and will not be in the future, for both you and me.Clinging to our biology alone, is like clinging to a sinking ship. It'll take us all the way to the bottom with it. All we have to do is look at History to see examples of what such life has as limit's to it's potential depravity. And more importantly, we should look at what thoughts go through our own minds from time to time.I can't tell you what you think, but I know what I think of at times. Some of those thoughts are so revolting that I must ask myself 'why do I even think of them since I wish not to?'Where do they come from? Should I act out each one of them? Am I repressing my true self by not acting upon every passion and thought of violence as a means to an end?So in the beginning, the Christian message only resonates with me as a man, in that it correctly establishes my enslavement to self, DNA, and environment. The doctrine of sin.And it did so because I longed for that whithin, which is not... the hope of justice and mercy and peace.The hard part was examining my self and the desires that wished to reject such ideas. Why did I reject it?Because I wanted peace, but I expected everyone else to give up their pet sins and keep my own?That's what I did... I blamed others for my lack of happiness and peace. I never took the time to see my own role in this mess until confronted by Christ. Iwas too angry with others and their sins to see my own ugliness.He only left me two options... Crucify Him in my own mind and pretend I never knew or was beggining to understand (blasphemy of the spirit, which i believe is an attitude more so than a moments choice). Or listen to Him more, so that He could lead me gently to the place of openness and honesty.That's just the tip of the iceberg Ringo...Do you put your own worldview through such an objective, systamatized, and thorough criticism?Or do you just take the easy road and live for Ringo?Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

I don't care what answers you have arrived at or how you got there. This thread isn't about the answers - it's about the questions. It isn't about the destination - it's about the journey.Why do you think you have "arrived"? Why are you afraid to walk out the door again?It doesn't matter how nice the destination is that you've arrived at. How do you know there isn't a better one down the road? Maybe "objective, systematized and thorough" criticism is the problem rather than the solution. Why not think outside the system, outside the box?

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I hadn't thought of that. I find fear in general to be counter-productive, so my policy is to fear God exclusively. I doubt that this is a perfect policy; but I'm not perfect. At any rate, it is against my policy to fear doubt. {Maybe... That's actually a newer, abbreviated version of my old policy: "I only fear God and my own stupidity." If doubt = my own stupidity...}Since irrational thought isn't my strength, and most doubts I've encountered arise from rational thought, it's practical to resolve them rationally. But irrational doubts can certainly arise. I don't know how one would readily discuss them, and I wouldn't advise anyone to do so in public at any rate.There are many varieties of doubt. Some I have encountered in the past, and at least I think I know how to best deal with them. It looks like anything more I might say would be rational, and potentially subject to the same criticism.I'm half kidding there. I'll give further consideration to your question, but don't expect a response. I really don't know how to proceed.Now for why one would be actually afraid to doubt. For a Christian in this environment, there are hazards. Many here would suggest reasons to doubt that are far from valid. Taking an invalid doubt seriously, combined with a hurried attempt to resolve it alone without prayer or help from other Christians is a good recipe for failure. I hope I don't need to define failure in this context - it would only lead to arguments about specifics. At any rate, it's a proud and arrogant approach, which is cause enough for one to eschew it.

Come on Rob, step up.

i've pretty much gotten to the end of religion and even into the concept of a maleficent god. so. i don't really know what's left.

Feel like replying?

I'm not talking about "irrational doubts". I'm talking about doubting the rationality of your pet beliefs. Doubt used properly removes irrational beliefs. As I have suggested, the major hazard seems to be the loss of irrationality. So what is a "vaild reason" to doubt?

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Yet so far no one have provided anything that shows the "certainty of faith" and in the message you are replying to (Message 30) I specifically mentioned that one cannot be sure.I would tend to agree with you if, for example, you said that anyone who claims to "Know God" or "Know they are saved" is either lying or deluded, but that is only a subset of the religious, those who are either very ignorant, who have never learned to think critically or really are deluded.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Some thoughts deserve to die. They don't merit a second of one's time.These two examples are questions I took a long, hard look at before I accepted God's salvation. You tempt me to type the gospel or my own 'testimony' in this thread; but I'll decline. Now that God has written upon my heart, there's no way to erase what I know; I could not seriously doubt if I tried.Full disclosure: What's funny is that this very type of doubt did arise, irrationally {catch that, Ringo?} in my early years as a believer. It went away after a few days without a trace, and I can't really explain it. I understand it's not uncommon.But here's something you should be able to understand. Think of respect. It isn't voluntary. In the military services, they require that 'superior' officers be respected. This is totally absurd. The most one can do is emulate respectful behaviour. One simply cannot respect a person who behaves improperly, and one has no choice but to respect a proper person. I was raised to give every stranger the benefit of the doubt, but beyond that one has no control.Now to ask a genuine Christian to doubt God's love can be compared to asking a man to respect (not pretend - actually have genuine respect for) a known coward. It just does not work. And it's not a matter of voluntary choice. Not in this context. By definition the Christian has ruled out other gods. I'm not aware of any that can really compete. I know of only one God who even claims to have sent His Son to suffer and die for me. Is it rational or irrational to conclude that He loves me more than the wanna-be's? What would be the point? I can look at this proposal and see an utter waste of time. Perhaps this proposal is an example of the type of thought that deserves to be quickly dismissed. Really, a contest to see who can say "is so" or "isn't so" the most times is something you should've outgrown if you're old enough to read and type. Or are you being home-schooled? All my abilities are God-given. I'm not sure what you're suggesting I do myself, but I'm pretty lazy so I'll let another do it unless I have a good reason.I hope I'll be able to do a better job of distinguishing between yourself and a git in the future. I nearly blew off your post as meaningless hostility. If not for that last part, I wouldn't have taken a second look. See ya 'round!

Ringo:I am afraid of nothing... And that is why I know I have arrived. There is no legitimate challenge to my beliefs. And that is because far from being blind, I see right through you...Perhaps I am deluded Ringo. But it remains to be seen in the light of reason.On the other hand, and in the light of reason, your philosophical system falls to pieces. You cannot even legitimaize your questions let alone sustain your answers.God offers without favor or respecting the authority of men, to change that for you and me.Why are you afraid to try giving up total control of your life to the living God? If He is a figment of my imagination, then you are in no danger right?If naturalism is true, then it's not even a threat to you at all.What do you have to lose Ringo? Why are you afraid?Ringo:Do you prefer a subjective, unsystamatized, and incomplete analysis of the evidence?Your question is simmilar to that of a woman at the University of Florida State (Gainsville I believe).Durring the open forum, Dr. Zacharius shared a definition of culture as defined by the sociologist Daniel Bell. It assumes that 'culture is an attempt to find a coherent and logical set of answers to the existential questions that confront all of us in the passage of our lives'. In response to that she said, 'Whoever told you culture needed to be coherent?... Is that not just another one of these 'Western ideas' we try to impose upon the rest of the world?"Ravi (who is from the East and has travelled extensively internationally and knows the worldviews) let her get it out of her system without interuption and then he asked, 'Can I answer you now?'She said, 'yes.'He asked, "Do you want my answer to your question to be coherent? or can I be incoherent in my answer?"Laughter echoed through the auditorium... He goes on to say to the students, 'You know... when you're on the wrong side, or the receiving end of incoherence, you don't like it... We taught all of our students at Harvard, that morality is relative. And then when they go to Wall St. and live as relativists and our pension plans are raided, then we then want to put them in jail... Coherence is a powerful weapon of reality, and it is the best thing when you have a worldview inwhich everything coheres and naturally emerges... The Bible says, 'In Him, all things consist'. Which litterrally means, 'in Him, all things come together and into focus."So as for your other question... 'why I cannot go back out of the door?'...I can! But where would I go?Peter answered this very question when Jesus asked if he wished to leave. He was free to do so...John 6:66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve. 68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life... Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Larni:I have no interest in your pedestal Larni. You come down, and then we can talk.Ringo is far more reaasonable even than you. And that is not a compliment.Well... to Ringo maybe (sorta)