Why Are Christians Afraid To Doubt?

Knowing you have arrived and fear of going out again are completely different things. Columbus, Magellan, Hudson, Cook all died while exploring. They arrived and arrived and arrived but they kept on going out again. They understood that there is no final destination, only the journey. Who says I haven't tried it? Objective means that others will get the same results I do. That ain't gonna happen. As long as the subject is me, subjective is all there is.Systematic means inside the box. You can't test anything effectively without pushing the envelope.And no analysis is ever complete. You won't know until you get there.

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Not any more, I don't. Impatience is not something I respect, FYI.

Ringo:So, in other words... there may just be yet... a way to have your cake and eat it too?We gotta keep looking right? As Kuresu has said on more than one occasion, 'I don't have enough imagination...'Forget the facts:1. There is no evidence for it anywhere.2. There is no philosopher or scientist who has established otherwise.3. To suggest so in the affirmative is logically contradictory.3. There is zero reason to believe we ever will... other than
we want it to be true so bad, that we will deny logic itself and leave reason in ashes... to continue the unending journey into the unknown.Sounds like the finest definition of blind faith I know of. I can't help you Ringo. You'll lose your mind if you continue in this vein.We're so intent on finding a way to have it all, that we were even willing to crucify the only man who had the audacity to simply lay the answer in our lap without any strings beyond being overtly truthful with yourself and God's voice within.Just simple honesty! It is the only requirement! How complicated is that? "Dammit Jim!... I am a doctor, not a miracle worker!"I can't believe Ringo said:But that's what I've been telling you and you don't believe me when I say I am there. Nor will you believe anyone else on the matter. Not the millions before me, not no one, no how!You'd have to admit you're a sinner like the rest of us rif-raf... You'd have to concede you need God's help like me and the other weaklings. You're not being honest otherwise and God's Spirit is honest. That is why you cannot hear Him.You'll crucify Him out of your mind, and forevermore be out of your mind.It's ok... we're all guilty. Our enemy is within. But do not kill Him yet...I have made it as plain as it can be made.Jesus did so first, and taught the rest of us His ways. And they are supremely reasonable and simple to comprehend.John 8:38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father." 39 "Abraham is our father," they answered. "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the things your own father does." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

You lost me. Are you talking about your religion? Of course not. I've been where you are and it ain't "there". There's plenty more road.Edited by Ringo, : Capitalism.

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I like this analogy. It is interesting that Columbus went from a sort of blind faith landing up in the Americas, which was a whole New World to him as it was, but that his own preconceptions did not allow him to really see where he was.Columbus went back out again and again. He even came back to the Americas IIRC. But all of his exploring would have been useless if he had never questioned where he ended up.I believe that faith can take us to new worlds. I also believe that it is vital to know where 'there' is. I hate to knock off jar! but sometimes the only way of determining your location is to consult more than one map. I won't advocate a joy-ride in the dark with no destination (well, once in awhile) but you need to make sure you are where you think you are. After this, take a look around. Mountains? Caves? Rapids?

Looks like the purely rational approach or an "overly" rational approach is being questioned. I said I'd think about it some more, and might not respond. While I don't think a purely rational approach to everything in life is best (or even practical), it is hard for me to form a good argument for the irrational off the top of my head. It's an old lesson, and I forgot how I learned it... And I have no formula for the optimal balance, and the terms are blurry in some cases. So what is this game? How many different questions can we make using the same words? Let's just add that in with the second question. It is supremely arrogant for one to consider oneself the ultimate authority on everything. Just worship yourself and be done wasting time in that case. If the wisdom of Lewis is to be tossed aside merely on the basis of "Lewis is other than oneself", than so must the 'science' of Darwin be discarded because "Darwin is other than oneself". Even the mathematics of Pythagoras go to the chopping block.I take a humbler approach. I have learned that I am not the ultimate authority on very many subjects. My own personal "pet" beliefs that I arrive at independently are not above doubt. Doubt is their default status until I have a chance to discuss them with someone who is capable of understanding and evaluating them. And rationality is only one factor in the overall validity of an idea. It is just too easy for me to overlook some detail, or fail to take all factors into consideration. If writings are available on the subject, I would consult them as well.In the end we all usually make our own decisions. We all make mistakes. A good way to minimize glaring, simple mistakes is to use the help of others. There is truth to the saying "two heads are better than one".(Many Christian doubts are due simply to insufficient knowledge of scripture, so the antidote is obvious.)Methinks the "irrational beliefs" of Ringo's post have little to do with typical Christian doubts. I would expect anyone who realized an idea to be genuinely irrational to evaluate doubt it up front. But terms can get tricky. Is love rational? Is it rational for God to love us, based on what we are. Is it rational for God not to love us based on what He has done? What was so important about "rational" again? Catch me when I think I have one. It's too late (or maybe too early) now.There are valid reasons for non-believers to doubt, who have not heard the truth; but those would be off-topic. The Christian has once answered these questions, and there is no need to doubt the answers. We may encounter doubts that appear genuine, but when we learn by experience how weak such issues always turn out to be, it increases our confidence, and gives us one more opportunity to glorify God. There's plenty of unprofitable irrationality to be gained as well. Could one not stumble in here and become convinced Shroedinger's cat doesn't exist until viewed, but an unviewed Oort Cloud does exist. Now THAT's irrational. And yes, if anyone wants a new topic we can go at it. That's worth my time just for the laughs, so Clown Corps, please call me out.

Ringo:Where are you going Ringo?
What are you looking for?

For the sake of clarity, is this thread about questioning the existance of God per se? I am thinking about the mystics of all religions. I *doubt* that they have ever felt they were 'there'.In fact, the closer one gets to this mysterious somewhere, the more doubts they have. I wonder if Rob has considered what would be his reaction to a spell of pure unmitigated spiritual aridity?Phat, if you are listening, I don't know that a person can stop themselves from doubting. The only thing they can do is stop themselves from learning. Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

Well then, your easy to lose...No, I was talking about yours, and how out of kilter it is with the facts as we know them to be on the issue that my numerical points were in reference to.You do remember what the issue was don't you?Let's recap... we're talking about whether one can have their sin and still keep peace and harmony in the land.Rob:I have to agree with myself on all of the above, and especially that last point.

I'm not sure what you mean. I think I've been pretty consistent. (By the way, by "rationalize" I mean "make up plausible answers that appear to be rational". Is that the sticking point?) I never said anything of the sort. I said don't use Lewis as a crutch. By all means, read Lewis, undestand Lewis, incorporate Lewis' thoughts into your own and express your thoughts in your own words. This thread isn't about "typical Christian doubts". It's about the atypical doubts that Christians are afraid of. There is every reason. How can you know you have the "right" answer? Don't you doubt your own infallibility?Once more, the topic isn't about why you "shouldn't" doubt - it's why you're afraid to doubt. All you're doing is demonstrating that you are.

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No. We're not.We're talking about why (some) Christians would rather huddle in the dark with their Right Answers™ instead of having the courage to explore the questions. Forward. Why do I have to be looking "for" something?

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Was it you who said I never replied to you?For the record... I din't know what doubt was until I believed.Then all Hell broke loose!Doubt is essential for us...1 Peter 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.Re 3:18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

I don't know exactly what Phat had in mind. Maybe I've been using that general idea as a catch-all for generic doubt.But I can think of lots of things to doubt: Jesus' existence, Jesus' divinity, Paul's veracity, the Trinity, the Fall, the Flood, Satan, God's motives.... These are a few of my favouite doubts.

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This entire post is confusing and vague to me, Rob. I don't understand your point at all.

Because... there... is... no... way... to... tell... if... you... are... moving... forward......if... you... don't... know... what... you... are... looking... for...How do you know you're not moving backwards, or moving along upside down or inside out?You call that courage?That is the smallest and most desperate and il-motivated lack of caring about anyone but yourself.It's all a game to you isn't it?I am just a toy for your amusement no?A rattle for you to play with?Anything to entertain yourself eh Ringo????Simple pleasure is so hard to find after riding the waves of bliss as you have huh?Let me leave you with a warning...Regarding this quest for self-fulfillment, sociologist Daniel Yankelovich arrived at an astounding analysis. He’d studied several couples in their pursuits and came to this conclusion. Please notice the word “and” in his summary of one particular couple he called “Abby and Mark.”Here’s what he said. “If you feel it is imperative to fill all your needs, and if these needs are contradictory or in conflict with those of others, or are simply unfillable, then frustration inevitably follows. To Abby and to Mark self-fulfillment means having a career and marriage and children and sexual freedom and autonomy and being liberal and having money and choosing non-conformity and insisting social justice and enjoying city life and country living and simplicity and graciousness and reading and good friends and on and on.”“The individual is not truly fulfilled by becoming ever more autonomous. Indeed, to move too far in this direction is to risk psychosis, the ultimate form of autonomy. The injunction that to find one’s self, one must lose one’s self, contains the truth any seeker of fulfillment needs to grasp.”Chesterton’s dictum has proven true... Meaninglessness does not come from being weary of pain, but from being weary of pleasure.