former speed of light

I do believe there is spiritual light. I know this from descriptions in the Bible and the testimony of the dude that lives next door, and others which all make sense; however, I don't have too many reasons to believe it is connected with the physical universe in the manner you describe although I have not ruled it out.

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You make statement after statement with no measurement of any actual phenomena

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If we take as a given the spirit world, then we can stack up some measurements. If we rule it out, because physical instruments can not measure it, then you run into a problem. The supernatural is so universally known that you ignore it at your own peril. Also, if you use these same little pipsqueak physical measurements, to embrace your cosmic speck creator, and try to rule out the real One, then you engage in the absurd. Doesn't matter if you take a known physical universe measurement like the speed of light,(which is fine) and then fantasize how far away a star is by assuming it was created billions of years ago as a result. Then turn around, and try to say there is evidence for it. What the evidence is, is how fast our light moves. Anything else is speculation that flies in the face of the known God (lots of people know Him)- and the known supernatural, and spiritual phenomena. It becomes then a mere religion of unbelief in God, based on ignorantly ignoring the camel, and straining holier than thou at knats that lead to insane conclusions. Conclusions like God didn't create us, but we are mere beasts who sprung by good luck times a billion billion to the thousanth power, from granny bacteria, in a cosmos that grew out of a speck sized dead cup o soup for no apparent reason, of course billions of years before the bible says we were actually created!
I think I'll rest from this for a while, and ponder the implications of having something that evos can't really touch, that would explain how our creator was really true after all.

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I don't have too many reasons to believe it is connected with the physical universe in the manner you describe although I have not ruled it out.

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From the link you included in one of your recent posts, I think it was from Setterfield, you know a lot more about this stuff than I ever will, so I'll take that as a compliment!

arkathon Could you please explain what makes you think it is a fantasy? Yes,it is very difficult to touch that which is only imagination and wishful thinking. Audiatur et altera pars.

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Could you please explain what makes you think it is a fantasy?

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To take the speed of P, and use it to measure time of creation, is mere mental imagination. If you say something like, 'if we were to travel to a distant star at P speed, it would take so long'...then fine, we agree. But unless someone can prove it could not be, and indeed God split the spiritual from the physical for some reason, then shortly after it was created, S could get to the same star in no time. So, we can not say, after split, when along comes P, that P speed is a measurement for creation time. All P speed is, then, would be the speed that our light could travel under present conditions. It could not be used to give us the time when a distant star was created. So this is what I mean by 'fantasy', The fact it travels so fast is not the fantasy, only in using it to try to say God's creation timetable was off.

Here's an idea I'm rolling around in my head right now:Perhaps, spiritual beings have a certain amount of very localized control over the physical universe. If a spiritual being desires (and if God allows), it can manipulate zero-point energy and allow photons to be emitted at any wavelength in order to form an "apparition". It might also be able to manipulate the electron flow in a human's brain in demon possesion in order to take charge of the person's body.I can't decide if a spiritual being is bound at all by the physical universe and if it is by what dimensions. Perhaps if we had the ability to observe local changes in space density or zero point fields we would see spiritual beings. I donno, just a thought.

I have thought similarly many a time but I find it best to only work it up in reflective mode when anything needed can be remembered. I used to imagine gravity waves but I still had the difficulty of making the predicate out. If I keep the same as a THOUGHT only then it still works in all its glory but just writing about it destroys a bit of its glory so I find internalizing Kant still a shaper excersice for the brain Pink needed before any letter or book title sought.

arkathon I need clarification of this. Do you mean the speed of light is the only evidence pointing to the measure of the time of the Big Bang? Therein is the problem old man. You are asking us to prove it could not be when it is you making this claim for spiritual light. In the same way it is our responsibility to show how the claims we make are consistent and logically sound so to must you show what the means are for arriving at your conclusion that this event actually occured.

To arkathon:You have got to be kidding me.First, you created the premise of "spiritual light" (out of thin air or creative imagination) that cannot be detected/measured/manipulated by any physical instruments.Then you applied this hypothetically metaphysical concept on physical reality, while providing no limitations on its properties.And finally, you conclude from the introduction of this unsupported/ uneducated/unfalsifiable assertion (no, it is NOT a theory) that its properties (e.g. arrive from one point to another in zero time) must be possible unless proven otherwise.*********************************************************************Consider:I believe that in the World of Infinite Enlightenment, 20,000,000 years ago, there was a perfect substance called "gob". If you're hungry, you eat gob and it will replenish your strength. If you're thirsty, you drink gob and it will quench your thirst. If your car's not moving, pour some gob into the tank and you can drive forever. If your shirt's ripped, smear some gob onto the rip and the shirt will be good as new. It fixes all problems and improves on the imperfect, regardless of situations and circumstances.Unfortunately, the last unit of gob was consumed by the hobgoblin "Spearmefish" some twenty-million years ago, which is the reason why there's no gob around today. However, unless someone can prove that it could not be, then gob's existence must be true.You see no problems with your reasoning?

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

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I can't decide if a spiritual being is bound at all by the physical universe

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Some spirits would be. Some people, as I understand it, after death, have to hang around earth, usually in a certain area, perhaps to see the results of their life on others. Hopefully it would be a way of learning from mistakes, and seeing clearly how certain things were mistakes. Anyhow, these ones (in christian speak, the unsaved) must be bound by the physical. Then we could look at old 'jailhouse' hell, and any spirits there would certainly be bound, and limited.
Then we could look at the angels, it seems there may be certain boundries there sometimes as well. One angel on his way to get a message to Daniel, in the bible was delayed by a demon or some such, for I think it was about a month, before he finally fought his way through!
As far as exactly scientifically how they do it, you could have something. Then again, you very well may be missing a few pieces of the puzzle.

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First, you created the premise of "spiritual light"

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Did I invent God too? How about the spirit world, can I get a patent on that one? As far as traveling beyond physical limits, as I think I pointed out somewhere, that was the bible's idea. Yes, the bible even applies the spirits to the physical world!! Take Gabriel visiting Mary, as a quick example. Or how about Jacob wrestling with an angel? Measuring? Why when the big rend in the fabric covering the ark of the covenant came from top, to bottom, at the moment of Jesus' death, showing that He was now the only way to God, you could have measured that!! (no doubt the very ones who helped have Him killed to begin with would have covered this up quickly, though). If you measured His tomb, it would have had less volume inside after He arose! Anyhow, the concept of the spiritual having a physical affect is ancient, and well established. Unlike your tale you posted, which does not check out with the bible. I know. 'there just ain't no such thing'!

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I need clarification of this. Do you mean the speed of light is the only evidence pointing to the measure of the time of the Big Bang?.

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No, certainly a very important one though. If you want to conceed this one, I'll be happy to flip through the other dominoes that will fall wit ya.

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In the same way it is our responsibility to show how the claims we make are consistent and logically sound so to must you show what the means are for arriving at your conclusion that this event actually occured.

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"logically sound" -the speck that all came from? The only way it seems to me you could say that was sound logic, was if you sailed right back past the actual creation date, first of all, by billions of years. Then, explain why it is so logical galaxies and planets, and the Milky Way, etc, would basically fit on the head of a pin! Then why is it so logical they got the bright idea to slow motion blow up, or out of little mama soup speck!? I guess there was no God in the soup, squashed up, as well? So He couldn't then have helped with the excercise. Ah, no wonder He couldn't help granny bacteria!

You still have failed miserably to explain seeing the light from the star that is one billion light years away.Unless you can explain that one you got nothing here just as in the other threads.So let's stick to just that one. How can we see lights from any star that is more than 6000 light years away?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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How can we see lights from any star that is more than 6000 light years away?

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I think this was answered quite clearly. Here's the hint, has to do with the split.

Wrong. Please explain the mechanics. This should be fun.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion